[_kbh_]

> If you think it through, the only reasons this “I’m a pacifist but” dime store morality can be entertained at all is because of the idea that Ukraine is winning, and because Western audiences (and to an extent even Ukrainian) have largely been isolated from the true costs of this war (to both sides; and also to Western economies and arsenals).

So your telling me if your family was in the occupied parts of Ukraine, being tortured by the Russians, raped, etc you’d be happy to hand over that territory to the Russians and just let it all go?.

> Should Ukraine in fact lose, I hope you will remember then that a generous deal was on the table (no loss of territory except obviously Crimea), and so hundreds of thousands will have died (and in fact have already) for much less than nothing.

Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians haven’t died yet so you’ll have to wait a bit longer for that to come true im afraid.

> I'll leave you with this: https://twitter.com/mdfzeh/status/1679909338276671488

Plenty of bad things have happened in the war in Ukraine for Ukraine that was covered by real media.

Yet you pick a tweet from a Russian propaganda account.

[rainworld]

Atrocity propaganda is great for eliminating opposition at home. It doesn’t win you a war, though. And it bears repeating: the thing about wars is you actually have to win them.

The curious thing is that historically it’s always the good guys that have won, so I’m certain the Russians will not only prevail militarily but also in the moral dimension.

[_kbh_]

> Atrocity propaganda is great for eliminating opposition at home. It doesn’t win you a war, though. And it bears repeating: the thing about wars is you actually have to win them.

That’s not an answer to the question, then again I don’t think you’ll ever answer it.

> The curious thing is that historically it’s always the good guys that have won, so I’m certain the Russians will not only prevail militarily but also in the moral dimension.

Considering that Russia is doing similar things in Ukraine that they did in the first Chechen war, which they lost both on the battlefield and morally with their filtration torture camps.

This bodes well for Ukraine.

If you think the country that is raping and torturing children, committing genocide, committing crimes against humanity and razing entire cities to the ground is moral then you have a very different definition of moral than most people.

[rainworld]

That’s not an answer to the question, then again I don’t think you’ll ever answer it.

https://twitter.com/tinkzorg/status/1680452684988424193 Tag yourself. Bravely volunteering other people to die and feeling really, really good about it.

[_kbh_]

Once again no answer, as I said you would never answer.

Because you’re asking the Ukrainians to put their own family into a wood chipper for your own comfort.

Because this is clearly not your fight and you clearly have nothing in this conflict.

[rainworld]

Conveniently ignoring the fact that they are on their 12th wave of mobilization, and that most of these men are not at all volunteering. The regime is literally abducting men from the streets and their homes. Men are in hiding from press gangs. Because it is the Ukrainian regime’s and the West’s fight not theirs.

More for you to ignore: https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/07/15/ukraine-war-conscriptio...

Also, I’ve never called for Ukrainians to lay down their arms—those that actually want to fight.

wood-chipper

Foaming at the mouth. Back in the real world, this war is notable for its uniquely low ratio of civilian victims.

And if you think Russia had or has the goal of eliminating the Ukrainian people, reason and debate cannot reach you anymore. Many millions of Ukrainians have fled to Russia over the last nine years, and prosper—guess they’re next?

If it was your fight you would not be fighting me on HN.

The How does it affect you? meme. I’m part of the West and the West is at war with Russia and that does in fact affect me. And who knows where this could end.

The fact that the West is gleefully pouring oil into a fire that has already consumed hundreds of thousands; yes, that affects me.

Without Western “help” this would have been over within weeks, a few months at most. Suffering would have ended a long time ago. The regime might or might not have been replaced. For the vast majority of Ukrainians life would have resumed its normal course.

[lisasays]

And if you think Russia had or has the goal of eliminating the Ukrainian people, reason and debate cannot reach you anymore.

О боже, нет. Not all of them. Just those few thousand or soon the "kill or capture" lists that were carefully prepared before the invasion. Along with anyone who refused to dig trenches, or to answer in Russian when spoken to, or otherwise showed anything less than the highest respect for the liberating forces during the special operation.

Or who were stupid and treacherous enough to have hid in that theater basement in Mariupol. When they should have been out in the streets, protesting against their Nazi occupiers. And welcoming their liberators with bread and salt.

The rest were meant for eternal subjugation: annexed to the Motherland and forcibly Russified, if they lived in predominantly Russian-speaking regions (and most likely a few buffer regions for good measure, and Kyiv itself). Those living in the Western regions would have to contend with living either in an outright vassal state, and/or one with limited sovereignty -- i.e. Finlandization but with much stronger "security guarantees" to Moscow.

What was scheduled for elimination was the very idea of Ukraine, and within the liberated regions, any expression of the vulgar, degenerate "Little Russian" language (is it even a langauge?) and culture (if we can even call it that), beyond a highly marginalized "kitchen" status.

Per all the things the current Tsar and his helpers have been saying, in the years leading up to the invasion. And of course what is currently happening in the liberated regions, as we speak.

Suffering would have ended a long time ago.

Suffering for the so-called victim would have ended long ago - if she would just lay back and yield to her suitor's perfectly natural and understandable wishes.

For the vast majority of Ukrainians life would have resumed its normal course.

Indeed - she might as well just relax, sit back - and enjoy the ride.

[watwut]

It is just not true that historically good guys always won. And looking at Russian history, they quite rarely won in the moral dimension. Even their past victories are rarely in the "morally good ones won" category.

Past Russian victories involve massacres, genocides, engineered famines and even staggering amount of own victims to the meat grinders of various kind.