[nkuttler]

If your country's money and banking works for you I don't think I can explain to you why bitcoin is useful, you simply have no use for it. That your peers primarily use it for speculation says more about them than about bitcoin.

[manuelabeledo]

I would like to hear more about those use cases.

Because I cannot fathom a system where either currency or banking does not work, and the preferable alternative is to rely on a highly volatile asset that requires vast amounts of energy and time to work.

> That your peers primarily use it for speculation says more about them than about bitcoin.

We are not in 2011 anymore. Bitcoin did not become a widespread vehicle for commercial transactions. Countries with defenestrated economies did not find an alternative in Bitcoin. Instead, we have whales, among them large banks and corporations, controlling over a third of the market, and most transactions are made in exchanges with arbitrage or speculation purposes.

Suffice to say, I don't consider JPMorgan or Goldman Sachs my "peers".

[RestlessMind]

> I would like to hear more about those use cases.

Here you go, I have compiled some examples for you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095

> Because I cannot fathom a system where either currency or banking does not work, and the preferable alternative is to rely on a highly volatile asset that requires vast amounts of energy and time to work.

May I ask you where you were born and raised? A lot of people do actually have to face shitty systems where Bitcoin is a godsend.

[manuelabeledo]

> Here you go, I have compiled some examples for you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095

Isn't it a bit disingenuous to think that common people have moved $50bn in Bitcoin out of China? Or have moved ~$2.4bn worth of Bitcoin in Nigeria in a single month?

> A lot of people do actually have to face shitty systems where Bitcoin is a godsend.

I would say that a handful of examples, of which some are highly questionable, constitute anecdotal evidence, at best. Some of these scenarios are indistinguishable from using any other stable foreign currency, or even commodities, with the added difficulty of requiring certain technology literacy most people don't have.

> May I ask you where you were born and raised?

I could ask the same, because I haven't found many ardent defenders of cryptocurrency outside the tech circles of the so called developed world.

[RestlessMind]

> a handful of examples

Well, Bitcoin price is still 30K USD and the market cap is almost 600B USD. That is a very good macro proof that people value Bitcoin.

> I could ask the same

I was born in a third world country where the leader decided to demonetize 87% of currency in circulation on a whim. And the society doesn't trust government at all - people buy gold or land as soon as they can. Where are you from?

> I haven't found many ardent defenders of cryptocurrency outside the tech circles of the so called developed world.

Have you actually bothered to talk to anyone? I have had in-person conversations with people from multiple despotic or shitty regimes (Nigeria, Sri Lanka, Iran) to understand how and why they use Bitcoin. You talk to them, understand how it is used and you will also realize that Bitcoin is here to stay and grow.

[manuelabeledo]

> Well, Bitcoin price is still 30K USD and the market cap is almost 600B USD. That is a very good macro proof that people value Bitcoin.

Let’s not forget that Bitcoin price averages a volatility of ~4% daily. With Bitcoin, any given individual could have sold goods or services and make a profit one day, and lose pretty much everything in a week.

If that is not a sign of Bitcoin being used as a vehicle for speculative markets, I don’t know what it is.

> Have you actually bothered to talk to anyone? I have had in-person conversations with people from multiple despotic or shitty regimes (Nigeria, Sri Lanka, Iran) to understand how and why they use Bitcoin.

Using Bitcoin properly requires a certain level of tech and financial literacy most people just don’t have. It also relies on expensive infrastructure that is highly dependent on mining being profitable. Again, this is not 2011 anymore, nowadays only the very wealthy can expect to profit from Bitcoin mining.

I guess the question is, what is so different between a crappy hyper inflated currency, controlled by an authoritarian government, and a crappy volatile cryptocurrency, controlled by a few wealthy individuals?

On that regard, If I were to call any friend from Venezuela and ask them about starting to use Bitcoin right now, they would surely get some 2014 vibes.

[RestlessMind]

> Using Bitcoin properly requires a certain level of tech and financial literacy most people just don’t have. It also relies on expensive infrastructure that is highly dependent on mining being profitable. Again, this is not 2011 anymore, nowadays only the very wealthy can expect to profit from Bitcoin mining.

But most of the users don't mine - they just buy and hold. It is pretty simple and is as complicated (or simple) as buying and holding gold.

> a crappy volatile cryptocurrency, controlled by a few wealthy individuals

No idea how that is relevant since we are discussing Bitcoin :-p. In seriousness, that is where the social belief comes from. If people believe Bitcoin to be controlled by a few wealthy individuals, then either they will stay away. If they believe Bitcoin to be a truly decentralized store of value not controlled by any single government or entity, they will flock to it. If they are right, they will be rewarded with an asset which will appreciate in the long run. If they are wrong, they will get burned.

So far, believers in Bitcoin seem to be getting rewarded handsomely and naysayers are proven wrong multiple times (https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-obituaries/).

> If I were to call any friend from Venezuela and ask them about starting to use Bitcoin right now, they would surely get some 2014 vibes.

I met a Venezuelan last week and he regularly sends Bitcoin back home to help his family. Fiat exchange rate is artificially suppressed so his family would receive less if he sends USD. Gold is hard to send from the US to Venezuela. No one can stop Bitcoin transfers though and it is more trusted than the local currency.

[martin8412]

No, the price is 30K USDT, which has very dubious backing, part of which is BTC. They've never been audited and thus nothing points to them being solvent. It's believed that a lot of the backing is in Chinese real estate papers which took quite a big fall with Evergrandes' troubles.

[RestlessMind]

> the price is 30K USDT

You can literally sell one Bitcoin on Coinbase right now and get >30K USD back (minus commission). No idea how USDT is relevant here.

[nkuttler]

> I could ask the same, because I haven't found many ardent defenders of cryptocurrency outside the tech circles of the so called developed world.

Not surprising, you live in a media bubble filled with people from the "developed world".

[manuelabeledo]

You would be sorely disappointed.

[acaloiar]

When that list reaches the length of https://web3isgoinggreat.com/web1, a great point will have been made.

[RestlessMind]

https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-obituaries/ is already a great counter-list to your list.

Btw, lumping Bitcoin with web3 is as pointless as lumping penny stocks with AAPL or BRK.A.

[nkuttler]

Bitcoin has absolutely nothing to do with web3, so you provided an empty list.

[patmcc]

Give me a ballpark for the relative market share of "bitcoin as speculation" vs "bitcoin as currency".

I'd estimate it as...oh...98% speculation, and I think I'm being generous.

[RestlessMind]

What is your estimate about Gold? I say Bitcoin and Gold serve roughly the same purpose.

[patmcc]

Looks like gold mined gets diverted to:

47% investment and central1 banks

45% jewellery

7% tech/industrial applications

See https://www.statista.com/statistics/299609/gold-demand-by-in... and https://natural-resources.canada.ca/our-natural-resources/mi... - don't exactly agree, but close.

(and, importantly, it doesn't require terawatt-hours to maintain gold once you've mined it).

[RestlessMind]

So basically, 92% of gold is purely due to social conditioning and invented belief.

> (and, importantly, it doesn't require terawatt-hours to maintain gold once you've mined it).

I am pretty sure collective security spent on gold worldwide exceeds terawatt hours once you account for all the physical security as well.