[hollerith]

Because it urbanized so late, China had the option to choose the alternative you advocate, but did not to take it: China is full of cars.

In contrast, IIUC, landlines are basically not a thing in large parts of China because China adopted the telephone as a mass-market service so late that they had the option of making cellular-telephone network so reliable and so ubiquituous as to eliminate the need to run a wired telephone network to every residence, and IIUC China took that option.

The fact that China is full of cars is (because Chinese policy makers are sensible practical people) at least some evidence that the alternative you advocate is not as great as you think it is.

[f1yght]

I'm not sure how another urbanizing country choosing cars is evidence against my belief that denser and more walkable cities are better to live in. Places like the Netherlands are choosing to build dense walkable neighborhoods and in my opinion they seem really pleasant.

[hollerith]

If China had chosen the path that the Netherlands is taking, would you consider China's choice evidence for your belief? If so, then "the rules" dictate that you consider the fact that China chose the way it actually did as evidence against.

To quote from https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/jiBFC7DcCrZjGmZnJ/ ("Conservation of Expected Evidence"):

>So if you claim that “no sabotage” is evidence for the existence of a Japanese-American Fifth Column, you must conversely hold that seeing sabotage would argue against a Fifth Column. If you claim that “a good and proper life” is evidence that a woman is a witch, then an evil and improper life must be evidence that she is not a witch. If you argue that God, to test humanity’s faith, refuses to reveal His existence, then the miracles described in the Bible must argue against the existence of God.

[osigurdson]

Hasn’t the Netherlands always been like that? I haven’t been there in a while but it always seemed walkable and pleasant to me. Nice little coffee shops, pubs, etc. with lots of people walking around. It isn’t really for me but I get it.

[SomeRndName11]

China is also highy walkable and high density. Per capita car ownership is significanltly less than in US.

[hollerith]

OK, but per-capita car ownership is probably significantly less than in the US in every country with China's per-capita GDP or lower.

[SomeRndName11]

There is no absolute need for a car in China, it a convenience not a necessity, like somewhere in Phoenix or Tampa. So even if China twice GDP per capita compared to US there is still would be less ownership.

[osigurdson]

You may have to define "need". It is likely possible in nearly every jurisdiction to live without a car - particularly large cities like Phoenix or Tampa. Still I wonder why "living without a car" is really that important of a goal. Making life as awesome as possible should be what we are really shooting for. Being a 5 minute walk from everything important would be great. I don't know about a 15 minute bike ride though - that is really quite far and most people would probably rather drive I think (especially if in a hurry).

[SomeRndName11]

It is pure demagoguery. Live without a car in Phoenix would be nightmare, compared to life without a car in Wuhan.