[vacuity]

The fact of the matter is that those black immigrants have good educations and are doing well in the US, even if there is perhaps some bias in hiring. I'm talking about outcome here. So shift the culture of African-Americans here to focus on attaining good education, throw in government support and enforce race-blind policies (possibly favor poorer candidates that are acceptable), and I think there will be a similar outcome: within a few generations, equality should generally be reachable. I think that shift in culture is necessary and isn't widespread in African-American communities today.

> Immigrants tend to be more enterprising and hardworking

Yeah. So have the African-American populace at large match that.

> This whole idea is as absurd as saying that American expats in Berlin or Paris are a representative sample of Americans, and their ability to thrive in another country is reflective of uniquely American "cultural values".

I don't know what the financial situation of those expats are and how hard it is to live in Berlin or Paris, but if it is difficult then hard work is necessary, no? Whether that would be American cultural values is trickier to answer because of the diversity here.

[cjohnson318]

You're fine with comparing African Americans to African immigrants, so let's now compare White Americans to African immigrants: most Americans are not highly skilled, while many African immigrants are. In your words, we should "have the American populace at large match that".

[vacuity]

Seems like you're trying to get me to say something wrong. Anyways, I see nothing wrong with encouraging skilled work all around. I'm sure there are plenty of things to innovate on. For example, reducing dangerous manual labor or mitigating global warming. Maybe one day we'll be so advanced that few people will need to do work.

[cjohnson318]

> Seems like you're trying to get me to say something wrong.

Listen, if you honestly thought that saying half the stuff you said was right, then I don't know where to start. Imagine landing an interview for a job that will significantly effect where you can afford to live, what you can provide for your kids, and your ability to retire. Now imagine that your hiring manager is making value judgements about you personally, that are based on unfounded opinions he has about how your "culture", and you're passed over for a candidate that comes from a "culture" that he holds in higher regard. This is a real life scenario for millions of Americans, every single day.

[vacuity]

I don't even know you're drawing these conclusions from what I'm saying.

Here:

Result I'm looking for: Decent baseline of financial stability among African-Americans

Objective: Get educational attainment and good employment up

Major factors I think are necessary (for relatively quick results, anyways):

- culture shifts towards focusing on education

- government funds public schools in terms of materials, transportation, teachers, etc.

- reduce college tuition somehow

- race-blind hiring/whatever policies

I'm just trying to justify why I think the culture is important. There is evidence that culture is important. Furthermore, I'm saying that there's currently a lack of that education-focused culture and that's why e.g. Baltimore isn't doing too great even with all the funding.

So you should at most have an issue with

- culture shift necessary (which embodies "current culture not working")

I don't see where your evidence that culture isn't an important factor here is. Also, I'm not here to talk about historic grievances and bias and all that. I'm trying to discuss a way out, not bemoan the current circumstances or hope the world magically changes overnight.

[cjohnson318]

> I don't even know [how] you're drawing these conclusions from what I'm saying.

That is abundantly clear. Here it is in a nutshell: *if* you accept that "culture is important," *then* you cannot have "race-blind hiring/whatever policies," *because* you have already accepted that one culture values hard work more than another culture.

When you reject that "culture is important," then you can hire individuals based on their merits, instead of the opinions you have about their culture. Making decisions about individuals based on opinions you have about their culture is the definition of racism.

[vacuity]

When did I say to consider culture in hiring people? You're just putting words into my mouth. I'm saying culture is an important factor in getting African-Americans to be employed at good jobs, not that companies should consider a candidate's culture. If people start growing crops in hydroponic systems, end consumers won't care as long as the results are good. Wouldn't it be great if more and more African-Americans get quality education and it becomes less and less tenable for companies to have racist (perhaps unintentionally) hiring policies in the face of skilled work?