[fndex]

I'm not saying North Korea is a paradise or anything, but the country is technically still at war with the South Korea, which is heavily backed by the US. I wonder how much can be trusted from a NY Times(a US media company) article written by the "Seoul bureau chief for The New York Times".

[ornornor]

It’s also a country where the people are indoctrinated to believe their great leader is born under a double rainbow and descended straight from heaven, didn’t defecate ever, learnt to walk aged 3 weeks (yup) and to speak 5 weeks later at 8 weeks (yup), wrote 1500 books over 3 years, along with 6 operas (the bestest in the history of music, no less), and scored a 38 under par with 11 holes in one on the one and only North Korea golf course the first time he ever picked up a golf club before retiring from the sport for ever.

Oh and also if your family is deemed a dissident, the next 3–4 generations (including unborn children) will be imprisoned and raised in prison labor camps where children get killed by bashing their skulls open for stealing one (yes a single) grain of rice.

Not a paradise indeed. I’m not convinced the sanctions have much to do with any of the above though.

[mitt_romney_12]

The media has a propensity to basically report anything people say about North Korea, no matter how ridiculous [1]. For example back in 2014 a bunch of news sources reported that Kim Jong Un fed his uncle to a pack of dogs, the only source for the story was a random blog that turned out to be a Chinese satirist but the media ran with it because it fit the narrative of "the crazy hermit kingdom". In fact even golf story you cited here is completely invented [3]. There are a lot of problems with North Korea, but at the same time there is a lot of misinformation being willfully spread by the media.

[1]: https://www.dw.com/en/north-korea-fake-news-on-both-sides-is...

[2]: https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-25621324

[3]: https://www.youngpioneertours.com/top-five-best-fake-north-k...

Other sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_coverage_of_North_Korea#...

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/01/true-or-false-...

[severino]

> It’s also a country where the people are indoctrinated to believe their great leader is born under a double rainbow and descended straight from heaven

Doesn't sound too much different from countries where the people are indoctrinated to believe their leader was born from a virgin, doesn't it? You'll say the difference is 2000 years into the history, so, we just need to give NK ~1925 more years.

[mensetmanusman]

Double rainbow leader also blasts family away with giant cannons point blank.

[bitsage]

The situation is drastically different. When considering your example, the source isn’t the leader himself nor are you imprisoned or killed for going against the narrative surrounding the leader.

Not a day goes past where I don’t see someone try to minimize commie atrocities…

[fndex]

I'm sure you learned all that from other US/South Korean articles like this one, right?

I watched a documentary about North Korean defectors that wanted to go back to North Korea, one of the many reasons was to be with their families. They never mentioned their family were imprisioned. And it wouldn't make much sense to want to go back if their family was imprisioned.

Again, I'm no North Korean supporter or whatever, I just think there is a LOT of propaganda and misinformation about NK, and I think we should take everything with a grain of salt... Unless you think the US is a saint and would never lie about enemy countries.

And about the sanctions, I dind't mention any sanctions, you are just assuming that I support X or Y, when I never said such thing.

[peppermint_gum]

The reason why we learn about North Korea almost exclusively from the Western sources is because it's a totalitarian dictatorship that suppresses information. You can check out their media online and see for yourself that it's full of propaganda.

We don't get tourists from North Korea because they aren't allowed to leave the country. We don't talk with North Korean people on the internet, because their access to the internet is tightly controlled.

There's no grand western conspiracy to suppress information about NK. It's North Korea itself that does that.

I know that on HN many consider blind contrarianism to be synonymous with rationalism, but seriously...

[p_j_w]

None of what you've just said justifies believing what the media or government say about North Korea, though, does it?

[fiso64]

Apparently, "blind contrarianism" is when you don't take random blogs and news articles spouting ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims as gospel.

[CWuestefeld]

Unless you think the US is a saint and would never lie about enemy countries.

You seem to think the USA is just a monolith, and as such can be modeled as what the face of our government says. This is silly.

While it's true that business and especially the media is "in bed with" our government quite a lot of the time, it remains true that all have distinct interests.

[nullandvoid]

I'm not the most educated in this area, however this episode of darknet diaries (which seems to be well researched of the many I have listened to) paints a similar picture to OP https://open.spotify.com/episode/0DsGyzP9fYQ9LM6YiT5NS7?si=L... and includes interviews from several defectors.

It seems disingenuous to try and brush off the well documented brutality that is the way of life in North Korea, as being something made up by US / South Korea..

[fndex]

"A big thanks to Yeonmi Park for sharing her story with us"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeonmi_Park#Veracity_of_claims

[ornornor]

Oh come on

[fndex]

Now that's a good argument.

[mopenstein]

The US isn't the only country in the world. Find sources from European or British agencies, unless the U.S. has them under control too?

[fndex]

I'm not the one insinuating that North Koreans are indoctrinated into thinking the great leader has magic powers. You should be the ones to present the sources to such bizarre claims.

Jesus, the guy is saying people are indoctrinated into thinking the great leader "didn’t defecate ever". Do you really think North Koreans are that stupid and have zero biology knowledge? Or maybe, uh, this is just fake? Pure propaganda? Are you really that dumb to believe something like that?

[npteljes]

As with any news, you take it with a pinch of salt. Nothing new here.

Are there particular things in this report which you don't agree with, or consider suspicious, or know that it's an outright lie?

[mitt_romney_12]

News about North Korea should be taken with a very large grain of slat given the medias history of reporting fake news about them [1][2][3][4] (note: I am definitely not pro-North Korea and this story is obviously very bad, but I think people should be a little more skeptical about North Korea news)

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jun/01/true-or-false-...

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-china-blog-25621324

[3] https://www.dw.com/en/north-korea-fake-news-on-both-sides-is...

[4] https://www.channelnewsasia.com/commentary/fake-news-north-k...

[fndex]

How dare you presenting facts that the media has lied multiple times about North Korea in the past? Be prepared to be downvoted and flagged.

[fndex]

This article could have come straight from a fiction book. There is no evidence for anything that is being presented. It might be true, it might not be.

I'm not arguing they are lying or not, I'm just saying that we shouldn't blindly believe it.

But watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkUMZS-ZegM made me a little bit skeptical about those defector stories. It's a very good watch, and I guess it doesn't hurt to hear a different perspective.

[npteljes]

I think understand where you're coming from - people can tell whatever they want, and the media definitely loves to run stories like this. These stories are both popular and the diplomatic risk is also low. And we also have the accounts of Yeonmi Park.

On the other hand, there's no reason to doubt the story too much. NyT's stories are generally highly factual, even though their primary bias is left-center. And we know that NK is a hellhole, not just from defectors, as the "Loyal Citizens of Pyongyang in Seoul" video states, but from a myriad of other, independent sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeonmi_Park#Veracity_of_claims

[enterprise_cog]

The NYT regularly lies for US intelligence agencies. Or just publishes garbage from them as truth without verifying. There is every reason to doubt this story.

[sharikous]

You are perfectly right. Still "not a paradise" is an exaggerated euphemism once you look at available data (not only American).

[fndex]

Absolutely. I would definitely not like to live or even visit there. I just think that every story has 2 sides, and we don't hear the other side very often.

[tensor]

I absolutely despise this "every story has two sides" quip. No, every story doesn't have two sides. Yes, every story has multiple versions full of complete bullshit, but when we talk about a "side" we mean a reputable reliable side, and it is not the case that every story has two equally debatable and reputable sides. Sometimes a spade is a spade.

[mardifoufs]

Reputable, reliable (tm) American sources also led to a million deaths in Iraq based on what turned out to be false premises. Yet your very own logic would've called "a spade a spade" and would've meant actually believing Iraq had usable WMDs because I mean, that's just the hard truth! Every reliable source on your side said so! Who would even believe Iraqi/arabic media that shouted for a year that Iraq didn't have them, over prestigious and western institutions like the NYT!

I have absolutely no doubt that North Korea is hell in earth, but there is a very very very good reason to say that every story has two sides. But maybe you just haven't experienced being the victim of "the reputable side" lying without any consequences. As a Muslim that grew up during the war on terror, I can't really say the same.

[metabagel]

To be fair, it’s important to point out that the Bush administration politicized the intelligence apparatus. Specifically, Darth Cheney pressured the CIA into supporting his pet theories.

I bitterly told people before the second war with Iraq that there were no WMDs. Any well read, educated, intelligent person should have been able to confidently say the same.

[tensor]

There is no reason to say "every story has two sides." Some may, and you can call that out, but no, not every story has two sides.

For example, a report about a new science result, the science is "one side." The "other side" is not the crystal healing quack that believes in magic. Two, you have video evidence of something along with multiple eye-witnesses. That is one side. The other side is not "oh but maybe all the witnesses are really part of a huge conspiracy and the video is fake!"

Some claims are not strong, and if a specific claim is not strong then you can explain why. But you cannot just flippantly say every story has two sides, that's bullshit. You need to say why a particular claim should be doubted.

[mardifoufs]

When people say that every story has two sides, it means that you as an observer might not know the full truth. Not that the full truth does not exist. Again, I gave a pretty good example of a story that was pretty solid "truth" but turned out to be a complete lie. Without taking a step back and wondering if there was more to the story than the obvious(tm) truth, you are completely vulnerable to believing bullshit as long as it's credible bullshit

Again, the saying means that we as mere observers of huge, complicated geopolitical moves cannot know the full context and are vulnerable to propaganda. Yes even from the good(your) side. No conspiracy is required for that.

[fndex]

There are multiple links in this thread showing how the media lied multiple times in the past, a whole documentary interviewing defectors who want to go back and telling how the South Korean Intelligence Service coerce and pay people to speak against the NK regime, but you probably didn't bother to open a single link and read about it.

You talk about science, yet, every anti-NK article sent in this thread are extremely poorly written and lack evidence to their claims. How is that "science"? Unless you are claiming that "science is when it matches my beliefs".

[metabagel]

An even more bitter pill - a lot of Americans still apparently believe there were WMDs found in Iraq.

[mariuolo]

Doubling down is a well known ego protection mechanism.

[fndex]

I see where you are coming from, and I'm not saying that North Korean media or propaganda is reliable or the absolute truth. But does that mean the US "side" is reliable? Is the US really on the "right side" of the history of the world?

For exemple, did you know the US launched 3 bombs for every person in Laos? There are VILLAGES in Laos built with unexploded bomb left overs from the Vietnam War.

Did you know that there are children being born with life threatening health problems in Vietnam due to the amount of orange gas the US dropped there 40 years ago?

And quoting from a recent speech from Trump this year: "How about we are buying oil from Venezuela? When I left, Venezuela was ready to collapse, we would have taken it up, would have gotten all that oil, it would have been right next door"

Is this the reliable country we should blindly believe? Are they really insterested in telling us the truth or are they just saying/doing whatever is needed to protect their interests?

[More-nitors]

> Are they really insterested in telling us the truth or are they just saying/doing whatever is needed to protect their interests?

regardless of that, shouldn't you also truly believe on "let North Koreans travel freely"?

[fndex]

Sorry, I'm not following. Could you rephrase your question? Are you asking me if I believe North Koreans should have the right to travel freely? If so, yes, I do believe that.

[twelve40]

but in this case what would they lie about? i don't think anyone would deny existence of defectors or how hard it is for them to move around.

It's more like a poor quality article though, they start off by claiming massive new difficulties for these people in the last couple of years but don't tell you anything about why that happened. Mass surveillance and greedy traffickers who ended up stealing the money and ratting everyone out existed years ago as well, so they didn't really add any new information here, or at least didn't explain it very well.

[freddyfred]

More trusted than you, mate!

[fndex]

LOL. Alright then, Mr New York Times.