[em-bee]

you probably shouldn't abuse shell scripts to build a complex system, and beyond a certain level of complexity, a programming language is the better tool

but the only free programming languages available at the time were C/C++, various shells, and awk. everything else was expensive or not generally usable for other reasons. all the really useful languages to build complex systems didn't really appear or become freely available until the 90s. and perl was first among those.

[imiric]

I'm not saying that Perl didn't have its time and place. It certainly fulfilled a need at the time for a language more capable than shell scripts, but less cumbersome than C/C++.

But the thing is that today the shell landscape is much more mature for solving simple problems, and we have C/C++ alternatives that are saner and more capable than Perl (e.g. Go). So it arguably has lost its place, as shell tools are still in widespread use, while Perl is mostly underused. Raku is interesting, but it goes in a different direction, and its adoption is practically zero.

[lolive]

Python killed the game.

[cutler]

Unfortunately. Ruby should have been Perl's natural successor. Python is the VHS of scripting languages. For a start it doesn't have a decent answer to Perl or Ruby's one-liners. Then there's the crippled lambda implementation. Python is a sad case of worse is better.

[tharne]

> For a start it doesn't have a decent answer to Perl or Ruby's one-liners.

This is by design. Readability is core to the design and philosophy of python. One liners are cool and fun to write, but trying to decipher someone else's incredibly dense bash or perl one-liner is absolutely awful.

[thesuperbigfrog]

>> One liners are cool and fun to write, but trying to decipher someone else's incredibly dense bash or perl one-liner is absolutely awful.

You can write hard-to-read code in any programming language.

Python lets you with mandatory whitespace so that the awfulness spans multiple lines instead.

Really talented Python programmers can do downright demonic stuff with list comprehensions.

Python appears to be simple, but is actually quite complex. I recommend reading "Effective Python" (https://effectivepython.com/) to see beneath the surface.

[cutler]

The readability complaint usually comes from people who never took the time to grok the language and its idioms. At least give the user the option. Advocating a language based on what it denies you doesn't make sense. Why use a scriptig language at all if belt and braces is what you're looking for?

[2colours]

This topic is akin to "holy wars" and since I used to think the same way (still do to some extent), I would like you to at least consider another aspect: the effort it takes to "grok the language and its idioms" is vastly different depending on the design of the language. Letting people do whatever they want, whatever way they want it isn't only about protecting them from themselves or not.

Just think of C: I'd argue its design is actually more akin to Python than Perl (and it definitely inspired languages like Go and Zig, NOT languages like C++). It's a small language and this is a very important characteristic of it: you can count on being able to actually master it or at least very well comprehend it. Other effects of a simple and literally straightforward language can be: easier implementation and evolvement, less mental load on the developer, easier portability among developers (both for general knowledge and actual code), etc. I'm not saying that C is the way it is for all these reasons but I wouldn't overlook this factor and I do think that languages like Python are deliberately building on these advantages.

Now, I don't dislike C++ at all but back when I studied it at university, I noticed that it was the first language for me that needed to be actually studied, unlike Pascal, C, Python and "oldschool" JS. Ever since, the only languages where I felt the same were Prolog (mostly because it requires a different mindset; other than that, it didn't seem bloated) and Raku. Not C#, not Java, not Erlang. I didn't really have to touch Perl but from all I know, Raku started off as a fresh take on the Perl approach. It seems somewhat more organized but huge nevertheless, to the extent that there literally isn't one person who really "groks the language" all around. In the case of Raku, I wouldn't even say it encourages you to write unreadable code (especially if you have a thing for APL look-alikes, lol) - it's just so rich that there is a good chance you will come across something in someone else's code you have never used before and don't quite remember how it will act in your specific use case.

There are different types of freedom than "do whatever you want". Like, the freedom to feel safe and confident about code. These days, humanity has aggregated an immense amount of knowledge and technology and "I will do it all by myself" is not that much of an option. And even people with such puritanistic tendencies will choose simple and straightforward tools, even if not for the "limitations".