[ertian]

It must have been awful when you were forced to engage with a whimsical community like that. I mean...I'm assuming you were forced, because why else would you harbor so much bitterness over the fact that there were once some people who did things differently than you would have liked?

[throwanem]

Come now. Surely you can find something to criticize in what I've actually said, without needing to resort to footless inference about my person.

[ertian]

My main criticism is just that your whole point comes down to "they did things in a way I didn't like!"

So what? They had different personalities or different goals. When I found _why's guide back in 2004 or whatever, at a boring job that involved a lot of sitting around, I learned Ruby as a side effect of poking through this odd little text. That introduced me to concepts I hadn't come across at school learning Java and C, and ended up nudging me into a different direction, so that by the next year I was writing my class projects in Lisp when I could.

If I'd instead come across a sober-minded manual documenting a proper "serious" programming language, I'd have skipped it. That would have sucked. I enjoyed programming a lot more in my own post-_why timeline, even though I agree in retrospect that Ruby isn't a great programming language for serious projects and the twee-ness of the guide itself was a bit grating (to me) at times.

Criticism is easy and mostly useless. There's so much criticism on the internet, seemingly because it makes people feel superior, and I find it exhausting. Just don't use the thing.

[throwanem]

Any criticism boiled down far enough ends up in "they did things in a way I didn't like". It's not a meaningful response.

In this case, the criticism was in response to a perspective on these past events that is in my view overly informed by nostalgia, and while I don't make a general habit of snatching rose-colored glasses off anyone's face, in a public setting and especially in this public setting it is not unreasonable to do so.

I'm glad you found some good in the Poignant Guide. I had a similar experience with the Camel Book, a decade or so earlier, with similarly favorable outcomes - had my mom not proven amenable to being wheedled on the subject of an expensive birthday gift in which she could see no immediate value, I would likely not even be a working programmer today, to say nothing of someone able to grasp some rudiments of what may in a few more decades develop into a recognizable engineering practice. But I don't still use Perl or defend it, because beyond the most ephemeral and exploratory of contexts it is objectively godawful, and even in that context it lacks compared with tools that at least don't falsely advertise themselves as production-worthy. When people criticize it, I understand that they are criticizing it and not me.

And finally, on the point of whimsy versus professionalism - I mentioned the development of engineering practice, and that's a desirable outcome already too long in coming, because when we're trusted to build systems on which people's lives and livelihoods depend, we bear a responsibility of which a whimsical approach to the work constitutes active dereliction. Would you trust your life to a whimsical airplane, or your retirement to a whimsical advisor? Of course not! No one would, nor should they.

Other preparadigmatic engineering disciplines had the advantage of us here; a whimsically designed boiler, for example, will most likely maim or kill its perpetrator well before the bad idea gets much chance to spread, while we easily fall prey to the sorts of delusions that come from working with ideas and materials whose potential danger is much less immediately obvious. I would like us to be better at recognizing and extirpating such errors, and criticizing them where the opportunity arises seems like a decent way to advance that goal. I don't mind if you don't like it, but I would like you not to like it for better thought through reasons than these.

[ertian]

I think better criticism is, well, constructive. "Here's a better way to accomplish what they're attempting", not "That's all crap because I don't like it". And before you can do that, I think you have to understand what it is they're attempting.

I'm a professional programmer now, and I much prefer simple, straightforward manuals with clear descriptions. If I was trying to get work done, a bunch of whimsical cartoons would only get in the way. I would have no use for _why's guide today. Even way back when, I was annoyed by the ratio of text and cartoons to actual code & lessons.

But the world isn't made up entirely of professional programmers trying to get work done. There are teenagers who are curious about programming but intimidated by thick volumes and spare language websites pointing at API references. There are workers sick of their current career and looking for something new, and bored stay-at-home spouses. Whimsical guides to quirky languages are for them, not you.

I don't think anybody is pointing to _why's guide as a reference for people who need to write software for self-driving cars or aircraft telemetry in the immediate future. Nobody is arguing that all programming material must be whimsical and quirky. But there was room in the world for a cute little guide to catch newbie or non programmers and teach them a bit. The guide was just an on-ramp, and the community that surrounded it was just a bunch of newcomers fooling around, not Serious Programmers™. That's all it ever was. And in spite of that: a lot of good ideas came from that community, as others have pointed out elsewhere in this thread. A lot of them went on to be Serious Programmers.

I'm not under the impression that you're criticizing me. I read a chunk of _why's guide before I got bored, and then used Ruby for some hobby projects for a couple years nearly two decades ago, before switching to more robust languages: my identity isn't tied up in either of them. I feel like a bystander sitting on a park bench sipping coffee, witnessing you yelling at a group of kids dressed up as an anime characters or whatever, that they should put on a suit and find a real job goddamn it. Like dude, they're just having fun, and frankly it's none of your damn business. You don't like cosplay? Good for you. But maybe chill out a bit and stop yelling at strangers that they're living their life wrong.

[User23]

> Any criticism boiled down far enough ends up in "they did things in a way I didn't like". It's not a meaningful response.

Objectively false. Although, granted, much criticism does fall in that category and it's generally worthless. However some criticism is "they did things in a way that was strictly worse than this other alternative that I will describe in actionable detail."

Interestingly enough, virtually all unsolicited criticism falls in the former category.

[gsinclair]

Your long rant is not actually interesting or factual enough to criticise in detail.

I’m only writing this reply to point out that you have already engaged in a lot of making footless inference about other people’s person, so please don’t be surprised if the same is done to you.

[alangibson]

Your entire argument is that you personally don't like Ruby nor the ways of the Ruby community combined with a bunch of unsubstantiated assertions. There's nothing else there. What else should they address besides 'your person'

[throwanem]

They actually did a pretty good job of elaborating a critique of my criticism in replying to the same comment you did, so I chose to continue the dialogue there.