[sclarisse]

Mexicans in construction can feel like wage slaves every day in Mexico. Those temporarily in the US get to feel like they’re making bank, absolutely just cleaning up. Typical roofer in the US makes $50k (BLS figure). Not sure what he makes in Mexico but the median income in Mexico is about $20k.

Why is the US based tradesperson superior to the Mexican? Why must we address his prosperity more than theirs? To “protect” the Mexican from making cash?

And remember that when construction is expensive, people have to pay for it. Maybe if you already have saved enough for your house, that’s fine for you, but if not? It absolutely makes it harder for young people (not in tech) to afford homes. And on the national scale we have a massive backlog in housing and can expect it will take decades before housing gets better.

US labor is neither morally superior nor economically sounder for the US or world economy. It is the specific laborer himself who benefits.

[ericmay]

> Why is the US based tradesperson superior to the Mexican?

A better question to ask is why is the value of the Mexican’s labor so much higher once they step foot into the United States for the same exact work and exact same skill level.

Another question you can ask is why can’t I as an American move to Norway and partake in their healthcare system and sovereign wealth fund? Or why can’t I move to Switzerland and work as a barista?

Once you can answer the second question, you have your answer to the first.

[ChainOfFools]

It's not even close to the same amount of work, the construction worker in Mexico has to be far, far more resourceful than his American counterpart because things that we take for granted in the states like having on-site power, a constant supply of water, porta johns, working power tools, safety equipment and padding, nearby air conditioned restaurants and other public spaces to cool off in after the job or on lunch breaks, transportation to and from the site are largely absent in most Mexican construction circumstances. Things like sawbucks and and jigs for bending and shaping rebar are almost always just improvised on site.

The concept of the US style planned development (fraccionamiento, very loosely the MX counterpart) where basic service infrastructure is laid down first, and construction happens afterward, is very much the exception there, and most work is done ad hoc using whatever tooling happens to be available in the nearest small town.

Also Mexican construction is almost entirely cement and cinder block standards due to relatively little native timber, and those things are all hauled around the site manually with occasional wheelbarrow assistance. None of this tilt up, balloon frame stick built business we have here.

Bottom line being that the typical Mexican construction laborer is going to be much more well-rounded, flexible, and industrious then the typical American construction worker, and as such is worth far more to an American crew, where these traits stand out, than to a Mexican crew where they are the norm.

[sclarisse]

The reason for the first is that the US has a much, much better environment for conducting business, compared to Mexico. This is on many levels, starting with education, continuing along to infrastructure, but also things like “low levels of official corruption” and “effective and consistent application of the rule of law,” especially least where business is concerned. For all our troubles (you needn’t raise them, I know) chances are that no one you know will ever be stopped by a cop claiming you were speeding and asking for a bribe; this would be business as usual and fairly unremarkable in Mexico.

It would be good if Mexico could improve and avoid these problems. Until it does so, trapping the Mexican laborer in Mexico to earn his wage, when he could go elsewhere, is like making a farmer farm in the desert.

It is not a natural-resource ownership allocation problem like you allude to with Norway.

[ericmay]

> It is not a natural-resource ownership allocation problem like you allude to with Norway.

This is false in the general sense but also you can just ignore the natural resource ownership allocation problem and still use Norway as an example, or a different country (the Netherlands? New Zealand? Japan?).

The answer someone has to provide is why an everyday American barista can't wake up and move to Switzerland, Norway, etc.

> Trapping the American laborer in America to earn their wage, when they could go elsewhere, is like making a farmer farm in the desert.

[sclarisse]

Japan is notoriously xenophobic with regards to matters of immigration. Many analysts speculate that this attitude will cost them dearly as their demographic trends continue and the population ages, or expect attitudes to change. The same is true for much of East Asia. Some recent coverage from within the past week: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/07/06/the-new-asian-f...

We don’t need to be stuck in a rut of malaise like Japan. We could prosper instead.

[LegitShady]

Mexicans in computer engineering/science feel like wage slaves every day in mexico. those temporarily in the US get to feel like they're making bank, absolutely cleaning up. Typical computer scientist/programming in the US makes $93,000. Not sure what he makes in mexico but the median income in mexico is about $20k.

Why is the US based computer scientist superior to the mexican? Why must we address his prosperity more than theirs? To "protect" the programmer from making cash?

And remember, development is expensive, people have to pay for it. Maybe if you already have enough saved for your application, that's fine for you, but if not? It absolutely makes it harder for young people to create businesses. And on the national scale we can use more mexican app developers.

US developers are neither morally superior nor economically sounder for the US or world economy. It is the specific laborer themselves who benefits.

PS Your argument is that the country you live in shouldn't value the citizens of that country over some other country's citizens - its basically the end of the social contract and of society in general. Its a bad idea but I guess if it saves you $15/h on a construction worker its now moral in your eyes?

Absolute drivel.

[jjav]

> Typical roofer in the US makes $50k (BLS figure). Not sure what he makes in Mexico but the median income in Mexico is about $20k.

If you were a roofer would you rather make 20K in Mexico us 50K in the US?

I don't know, but I doubt it is clear cut answer.

The insane US health care costs alone would eat up much of that if you're unlucky. I'd guess a young healthy single guy should take the 50K in the US but as soon as there is a family to support, 20K in Mexico may go farther.

[trimethylpurine]

If you're under 50k in the US healthcare is literally free. What country do you live in? Have you ever visited healthcare.gov? Your get an extra $400/child/month at that income. If you're Mexican and you're weighing working in Mexico, you should absolutely go file and then go to the doctor and get your head checked.

[jjav]

I guess you just solved the US healthcare crisis with a single comment? Since US healthcare is literally free, there can't be huge numbers of medical bankrupcies (but there are) and there can't be insanely high levels of uninsured and underinsured people (but there are) and low-income families have nothing to worry about regarding access to care (but they do). Closer to the HN demographic, individuals who wish to start startups can freely do so without worrying how to get healtcare if they leave their FAANG job (but they can't).

The other possibility might be that it's not that simple.

When I was playing around with startup ideas, not employed by any large corporation, your so-called free healthcare was costing me well over $3K/month in the US (not including out of pocket expenses, of course).

[trimethylpurine]

Average costs of healthcare in the US per person is roughly $560/mo. That's a little more than most European countries based on tax breakdown. Yes, in the US rich FAANG workers that decide to go startup are required to pay for poor bus drivers making less than $50k. That's called socialized healthcare. I don't see a crisis. I see the news pedaling whatever garbage they need to slander the other party, including painting crazy pictures about the US "crisis" where lifespans are strikingly similar to everywhere else. Next time fill out your forms on time. You get Cobra when you leave and if you really are under $50k the following year, then yes it's really free. Unless you're too lazy to fill out your forms, or your startup took off, you are just fine.

[boomchinolo78]

Mexican construction workers, make usually the minimum wage. About 10 USD per day

[mint2]

I’m sure non-us programmers will welcome the relaxed visa requirements and companies will gladly pay them 1/2 the current market rates.

Or are only construction jobs being opened up like that?

[sclarisse]

I sure hope so. I’m earning 10x what some of my European programmer friends are. For it to continue like this is unjustifiable.