[soulbadguy]

> the difference in line count between Java + a bunch of libraries and Python + a bunch of libraries is a lot

In term of line of code yes, that's correct. But i think this simply shows that "delta in number of line of code" is not a great approximation for expressiveness. The difference between java and python are mainly "ceremonious" line of code that case be generate by any semi-serious IDE. I would put python and java in the same general class of expressiveness (even if python is much more terse).

I think "expressiveness" of languages form a partially ordered lattice, with few language on top.

- Some languages are unilateraly more expressive than other like C++ vs Java

- Most it depends : scheme vs C ; If you are talking about meta-programming and AST manipulation scheme is more expressive. If you are talking accurate memory modeliation and bit manipulation C win.

[gcanyon]

Since all the languages we're talking about here are Turing-complete, if you don't consider line count or code complexity, then they are all equally "expressive".

So almost by definition we have to look at what is syntactically well-supported, not just "supported at all."

And part of that can be proxied by "I want to do xyz, how many lines of code is that going to take?"

And part of that means that "ceremonious" code isn't excluded, even if a competent IDE can provide it. If um my um comment um includes um a um bunch um of um junk, it doesn't matter if a quick find-and-replace would fix it, it's still annoying cruft that shouldn't be there.