[DDickson]

If this were a camera that identified when and for how long a software engineer showed up to the office and notified their employer of "unwanted behavior", how long would it take for that story to end up on the front page of this site and torn apart as invasive and infantilizing?

[arandr0x]

Software engineers have full-time managers (which are a lot more overhead to pay for but kinda serve that purpose from the client perspective) and are paid well enough and consistently enough to usually only work one job on a given day. Subcontractors sometimes do decide not to show up to your job site because another employer offered them a bonus to do theirs that day instead. The point isn't (only) to humiliate or do a show of power to the workers, it's to counter an economic incentive they have.

That said, for a lot of subcontractor trades, it's so hard to find anyone that I'd worry about the reverse: you get known as "the freaks with the cameras" and no one good bids on your stuff anymore, and then the delivery is even more delayed.

[godelski]

> it's to counter an economic incentive they have.

I think economists would call that a feature and not a bug. It is essentially an auction (something economists LOVE). You could instead take that money that you're spending on surveillance and instead spend it on giving the contractors a bonus to show up to your place instead.

I really don't buy that this would "shame" them into coming to your place first. Everyone already is aware that they don't always show up because you got out bid. You're "solving" the problem the wrong way because you're not addressing the actual problem.

[arandr0x]

I would imagine shaming doesn't work because I think residential GCs have higher demand for workers than there is supply, but the cameras still solve the problems of making it easier for the GC to react when it happens (and the reaction could be offer to pay that sub more if the project is late or all the other subs have been showing up, realizing the work from the earlier stage wasn't done, and going home, or it could be lengthening their project schedule).

[moneywoes]

Perhaps the GCs are unaware of the surveillance themselves

[Topgamer7]

I think if these got to the point of "worker stared at floor for 7 minutes" it would be invasive. If it tracks when a vehicle shows up to site and leaves.

That being said, as someone with digestion issues, tracking bathroom habits is offensive.

In short, yes this is invasive. But much like AI, this type of thing isn't going away, there is just going to be more lawsuits about it in the future.

[StephenSmith]

We don't track port-o-potty use, just if they move. Vandalism is at an all time high on construction sites, tipping port-o-johns is a common teenage prank and the GC needs to know if and when this is happening on sites (and hopefully catch the perpetrators).

[xenospn]

Hmmm… going to start a company that makes portapotty anchors!

[delusional]

We should make it illegal by law.

[StephenSmith]

I guess I would say that subcontractors are more like hourly workers (who are time tracked meticulously in almost all industries) - not salaried like software engineers, who would deserve the respect and absence of tracking.

[talldatethrow]

I would argue salary employees deserve more tracking since they are given more freedoms. An hourly worker is paid hourly, and given tasks at a much smaller interval.. often by day and sometimes every few hours. If you have quarterly goals for salary employees, they probably need more 'tracking' to make sure they are doing what you expect as time goes on.

[agloe_dreams]

Not really, in the housing industry, it is generally job bid instead. The contractor taking longer just means they get paid later and don't get as many jobs done.

Also, Unions hate this right?

[StephenSmith]

It's less about tracking how long they're there and more about when they showed up. We do the former because we can, but the GC really wants to know if and when their subs are showing up without having to be on site 24/7 waiting for them.

For example, they can look back through yesterdays events to see that their plumber showed up - and then they'll know they need to go check on the work. The alternative is trying to get the plumber on the phone to figure out if the work had been completed or not - which is difficult in 2023.

There's not a lot of unioned workers in most states for residential construction. But autoworkers, and anything else in manufacturing would be used to the constant monitoring. Commercial construction also typically has fulltime site superintendents, who would do this anyway.

[agloe_dreams]

That's an interesting angle. My Father actually, by chance, owns a residential drywall and finishing business. The 'did the plumber show up' factor is key. Though I'm not sure why this couldn't be solved by having the subs of a builder agree to give basic job updates. How do residential customers feel about someone's camera watching their house?

[sulam]

If you've worked with these people you know that there's nothing "basic" about getting job updates.

[StephenSmith]

Anything that makes the GC more efficient is going to be a win for the future homeowner. This might get more problematic for remodels, but we primarily work with new home builds.

The GC can often bill it down to the homeowner as antitheft, which reduces time/money to complete the build. The biggest being time. An example, if custom windows are stolen, it could delay a project by months right now.

[whywhywouldyou]

So to clarify: as long as a worker is hourly, they don't deserve any privacy or respect, and can be surveilled at will. That's pretty incredible.

[jschveibinz]

Hourly means “paid by the hour,” so verifying time on the job is directly related to salary. “Punching in” on remote worksites is the problem being solved with this solution.

[ryandrake]

Thanks to both the parent for raising the ethical issues in this product and to OP for responding/addressing them. Our industry gets a lot better when we don't shy away from both asking and answering these kinds of questions!

[kodah]

Maybe a gentle reminder that automated surveillance happened to us first, by our own kind nonetheless. It's now a norm in the industry.