[sondr3]

I like Deno for many of the same reasons I like Rust and Go, the tooling comes bundled with the runtime. No fussing about with ESLint/prettier/tsconfig/bundling and all that jazz, Deno includes it all. The dependency story was a little rough for a while but with import maps now it’s really quite nice. With the npm ecosystem integrations it’s starting to be a very nice developer experience.

[danpalmer]

I guess this is part of my criticism. It's nice to have all that stuff bundled, but it's banking a lot on the decisions being the right ones for your project. When it's just the language, linter, formatter, that might be fine. Adding the package manager is often ok as well, but even Rust/Cargo aren't fully coupled. But then adding a package ecosystem (that isn't fully compatible), a server, infrastructure, database.... it's a lot of decisions that all need to be good enough.

[ravenstine]

No one's forcing anyone to use those things, though. I think the benefit of having those wrapped into Deno is that they'll presumably be performance optimized, but it's just as easy to use JS instead of TS, use ESLint instead of `deno lint`, Prettier instead of `deno fmt`, or whatever. Those are kind of evergreen toolchain concepts that I think benefit from being standard to Deno, even if their implementations are minimalistic.