[ne0flex]

I recently drove a 2019 Tesla Model 3 from NYC to Montreal via Vermont. Personally, I wouldn't do the route I took in a Tesla (/EV) again. The 'range anxiety' set definitely in during the trip because, when departing NYC, I entered my destination in Vermont and the navigation system showed I'd have 47% battery remaining upon arrival... I ended up arriving with 19% battery and I was in the middle of the nowhere. Due to the prevailing weather conditions (the car kept saying the battery was cold) and it was raining I guess the battery dropped quicker than it should have? I was stressing out because my wife would be late to meeting her client had I went to the nearest supercharger and I didn't know if I would have enough battery to make it to the charger if continued and dropped off to the client, given how fast the battery was dropping. After dropping her off, I had to charge the car a further 3 times at superchargers, adding an extra 1h45m to the whole trip to Montreal. I also charged the car once going from NYC to Brattleboro, which was another 30m, so almost 2h15m in spent charging the car.

[richardw]

YMMV but I think the obvious thing to do for anyone who worries about range is to use an EV for daily and hire the right car for a long trip. I don’t buy a car for my 1% trips, I buy a car for my 99% trips.

When I need a 4x4, I hire. When I go on a weekend away with lots of gear, I get a trailer or larger car. Big family outing, people carrier. Fetch furniture, Uber van. Getting a huge car and using it for shopping or dropping kids off is allowing the rare use case to dictate how you experience the typical use case. Harder to park, fuel, maintain.

Hiring also means I don’t have the “wrong” large car which doesn’t fit the rare holiday where I need more seats or storage.

[kelnos]

You've inadvertently made me feel better about purchasing an ICE car last year. I'd been having some regrets that I hadn't worked harder to find an EV (or at least a plug-in hybrid) that met my other requirements.

Since I don't commute to work, and usually take transit or walk for local trips, the bulk of my driving is longer trips. Range anxiety would kill me in an EV.

I do think there are some cases where it makes sense to at least choose the features of a car with some minority-trips in mind. For example, I drive to a snowy, mountainous region 2-3 times a year. I decided to buy an AWD car (sedan, as I dislike driving larger vehicles like SUVs). With the trips I've made since then, the added cost between the AWD and non-AWD versions of my car has already been covered by the savings in not having to rent a vehicle with AWD.

Tangential, but I was also offered an EV when I rented a car last week (after flying across the country), but I had no idea what the charging situation would be at my destination, so I turned it down and got an ICE car. Turned out to be the right call, as there were no charging facilities where I was going.

[jbarham]

A cheap and easy way to increase the size of the car you already have is to buy a roof box. Our previous car was a small hatchback and interstate trips with our three kids in the back would have been impossible without the roof box. I only bought a bigger car when my oldest kid was pushing 6 feet and running out of legroom in the back seat of the hatchback.

[reassembled]

And increase drag, resulting in lower fuel economy/range.

[jbarham]

Sure, but I only used the roof box on occasional long trips when we had lots of luggage (e.g., visiting the grandparents interstate for Christmas). So I might have paid a few tens of dollars extra in fuel, but it was certainly far cheaper than buying a bigger car when we otherwise didn't need the extra space.

The roof rack and Thule box cost maybe $1200 AUD. But the rack was also useful for attaching bicycle carriers.

[kelnos]

A larger car is likely going to have worse fuel economy and/or range than a smaller car. If you get the larger car, you take that hit every single time you drive it. If you get the smaller car and a roof box, you take that hit only when you mount the roof box. If that's most of the time, then sure, it probably makes sense to get the larger car. But I don't think that's the GP's use case.

The larger car is likely more expensive to purchase in the first place than the smaller car plus the roof box.

[hr2016]

Meh, I'm currently on a cross-island road trip with. Family of four in a >10 year old, manual, brown diesel grandtourer/station wagon. Trunk and roof box fully loaded.

Long range fuel consumption at 5.3L/100kms, as usual at summer conditions.

Of course, ymmv : - )

[piva00]

Needs to be done in comparison with a larger car that would fit the same cargo as the smaller car with a roof box.

[eetus]

Haha, literally YMMV (your mileage may vary)!

[tzs]

A plug-in hybrid could be a good choice for probably most people. There are quite a few with an EV range of 30-45 miles (e.g., Prius Prime is 44 miles). In the US the average driver drives 37 miles per day which would be mostly or completely covered by EV mode.

[sheepybloke]

I rented an Ionic PHEV a while back when I was in LA and was surprised how efficient it was! I drove the entire day, from West Hollywood to Santa Monica and then down to LAX and only used about 1 gallon of gas. It blew my mind at how efficient it was.

[tacker2000]

People are not gonna buy 5 cars or hire cars just for every use case. They want one car that can handle most of their needs. If the range on these vehicles doenst increase we will never see true mass adoption.

[adoxyz]

Which is exactly what the poster above said. Buy car for 99% of use cases and hire out for the outlier.

EVs are perfect if you road trip once or twice a year. If you’re road tripping every weekend then they may not be a good solution for you.

[tacker2000]

But i dont see how a road trip is an outlier. I get that needing a 4x4 is one, but most people go on some form of long trips a few times every year i would think.

[Seanambers]

It all depends on what kind of EV you have. Top of the line Model S has 400 miles of range and add to that supercharging. You will be able to drive almost as quickly as with an ICE car - you loose like 20 minutes on 620 miles. The limiting factor then becomes the driver of the car - rest stops, food and so on.

Check out Teslabjorns data ; https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzv...

He does 1000 km range tests on youtube amongst other things.

[veec_cas_tant]

A road trip of >200mi at highway speeds where you also cannot stop for 20mins to recharge?

[kelnos]

You're replying in a thread where the issue at hand was more than two hours of recharge, and a bunch of stress around the car's trip planner being way too optimistic about the range of the vehicle in the first place. Maybe your statement is true in some cases, but clearly not all.

[martin8412]

Assuming there's not a line of cars waiting.

[adoxyz]

Even before owning an EV, whenever I would do a road trip, I would rent a car/SUV. it gave me a piece of mind. I wasn't putting 100s of miles on my car. It was much easier.

A road trip is an outlier for me. I go on maybe 1-3/yr. The other 360 days, my driving is local, and with home charging I never worry about filling up.

[fomine3]

This strategy is not working if many people go long trip at the same time. This is happened for a long time in Japan, highway (and train) get jammed about 10 days every year. This is also pain for EV fast charger usage, so govt should encourage people to distribute holidays.

[hagbarth]

EVs arguably already have true mass adoption in some countries. They're 30% of new car sales in Denmark so far this year.

[rkagerer]

Yeah, I buy my vehicle(s) for 100% of my use cases, thanks. And not everyone has rental companies within convenient distances / routes.

[TheHappyOddish]

That's fine, this solution may not suit you. But it will suit many people.

[Tempest1981]

Turo may work for some/many: https://turo.com/

[BluePen7]

You must have very limited use cases, I tried to do that but ended up with a vehicle that was heavily compromised because half my use cases are at odds with the other half.

I was driving to my office job in an F150, burning enough gas to finance and fuel a new Civic, all while being terrible to drive.

So I did the logical thing, and added a vehicle that was efficient and enjoyable to drive, a motorcycle.

But it's agility made me only further resent the truck during the winter months, so I also added a compact luxury sports sedan.

Worst part was the F150 was both "too much" truck to daily drive, but never enough when I needed to do truck stuff.

Tried to landscape my home with some crushed rock, had to do 9 trips bottomed out because of it's paltry payload. Couldn't tow enough to borrow a friend's skid-steer. Had to buy my bricks a half-pallet at a time, a full pallet bottomed it out before the forklift had even finished putting the full weight on.

Downsized the F150 to a Tacoma, anything over 1200lbs and it's more practical to pay for delivery using a proper commercial truck anyways.

In the end I ended up with 3 vehicles, and if I had the means I'd have 4, I'd split the compact luxury sports sedan into a small sports car and a full sized luxury sedan for long highway travels. And this is all before even adding an EV.

tldr: In the motorcycle community they say the correct number of bikes is always 1 more than what you have. I strongly feel that applies to cars/trucks too.

[kybernetikos]

I recently drove my electric vehicle through my town and saw 5 electric vehicles in a row. This is not terribly unusual now. A friend is buying a hybrid rather than a pure ICE not because of environmental concerns but because it drives better in traffic. A number of countries will make sales of new ICE cars illegal in a few years time.

True mass adoption is already here. Not to say that I don't agree that range needs to increase (although it's incredibly rare I'd want to drive more than 250 miles without a 15 minute break). But I don't think the transition to electric will stop or slow or is really in any danger.

[seanmcdirmid]

I think at this point most EVs are bought for performance or economic reasons rather than environmental reasons. I still haven’t gotten over the acceleration on my i4.

[kybernetikos]

And that's my point really. EVs have some disadvantages (although for most people these are not as serious as claimed if you can get the longer range versions), but overall they have a lot to recommend them simply as cars, even beyond their benefits to the environment. Even in a hypothetical world where nobody cared about the environment, and governments weren't penalising ICE cars, mass adoption of electric cars would still be inevitable at this point.

[kelnos]

I don't think range is really the issue. If charging stations were as prevalent as gas stations, and charging time was much lower, that'd probably be sufficient for most people.

[brianwawok]

I got used to this by my second road trip and it’s a nonissue. You control discharge rate Tina large extent. Battery on track to hit 0? Low speed from 74 to 69 and you do just fine and arrive at 12%. Have near 50k miles in road trips and won’t ever buy a Dino bone burner again.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

Yup. The sane applies to ICEs, but fast refueling means people don't need to think about it.

[BluePen7]

I regularly do a 200 mile mountain pass with a 75MPH limit, and have been explaining all this to my wife regarding our new Tesla.

But I'd have never admitted how much more efficient our old ICE car would have been at 50MPH than the usual 85MPH I preferred (it's 3 lanes wide and empty, so it's not unsafe to go slower, I just didn't want to).

[ggm]

Battery swap (please, don't swamp this with statements about greshams law and batteries) would eliminate this anxiety/speed thing too.

[anonu]

Battery swap is probably not the way. My prediction is charging times will get much faster with better battery tech in the next 5 years. We might be able to get a full charge in under 10 minutes - which starts to match the convenience of a gas fillup.

[kelnos]

I don't see manufacturers agreeing on a standardized battery pack size and shape. I also don't see battery swap stations getting built to the density needed, even if only as a supplement to charging stations. Battery swap stations would be significantly more expensive to build and maintain than charging stations.

Regardless, we don't have battery swap, and I don't think any (serious) manufacturers have plans to go that route, so it's a moot point.

[kccqzy]

What you describe is just a rookie mistake being a new EV driver. Humans learn and adapt very well. You'll get used to it very quickly if you keep driving EVs. You'll learn to do route planning better and those won't be problems.

[kelnos]

But why would I want to deal with the hassle of better route planning when I can just drive an ICE car and not worry about it?

Sure, there's a breaking point where gas prices go up crazy high, and there are the environmental concerns, but I don't think it's surprising or even unreasonable that part of the EV push back is "have to relearn how to plan trips".

One other thing that bothers me about this is that the range of a gas car is somewhat independent of weather conditions. An EV losing a chunk of its range (completely messing up your route planning) because it was colder outside than expected... well, that's just not acceptable.

[TheHappyOddish]

Remember that "gas" stations were not as dense when ICE cars first came out, and people had to adapt to said hassle at the time.

Critical mass generally provides the scale to solve these problems.

[kccqzy]

> there are the environmental concerns

Bingo. You don't have to agree with me but in my opinion anyone who needs a car and can afford an EV but not driving one is morally reprehensible. We needed to reduce our fossil fuel usage twenty years ago. People putting their own convenience above the environment are selfish and short-sighted.

[ethanbond]

Better route planning doesn’t negate the need for long stops in really odd locations like abandoned mall parking lots.

Also did NYC -> Montreal in a Tesla and the charging situation was much more frustrating than I had expected.

[twelve40]

yeah no. wife yelling at the top of her lungs because of low battery. No thank you. Leased and gave up an EV, now will wait until normal-priced ev's are solidly in the 400+ miles range. I have no desire to graduate from your "rookie" to an "ev planning pro" and wait until everyone else around me does that, too.

[veec_cas_tant]

What is additional range going to help with here? You misjudged your range, almost certainly due to Tesla overestimating remaining range (not taking into account all variables), and your wife yelled at you for it. Having an extra 100mi range will just delay that scenario, not prevent it. It takes about one longer trip to understand how speed/conditions affect range and how that necessitates an earlier departure time. Next time just plan for a quick stop after 100mi or so to give you some extra confidence. Faster charging and more stations will help out though, no doubt.

[somsak2]

>wife yelling at the top of her lungs

this is a problem with you and your wife's relationship, not the EV.

[EdwardDiego]

I'd say she was stressing about missing her business meeting because the estimates given to the users by the car about range weren't accurate.

That's on the EV, not their relationship.

[maigret]

EVs are highly efficient so the driving conditions make a huge difference. ICEs have a constant base consumption that we have gotten used to. It's unsettling at first, but as your consumption goes high a lot in high speed, you can save huge quantities (much more than you expect) by driving slower. You will lose less time than you think driving slower. Last time I spent 30 min behind a fast bus and quickly doubled my reach, more than enough to arrive home safely even while driving faster again.

I think the idea of not taking an EV because in some edge case one might lose a few minutes (30m for charging most vehicles nowadays) extremely superficial and selfish in view of the huge disaster that is the climate crisis. Think about how your kids and grandkids will read such comments in 50 years.

[kccqzy]

Here's a quick derivation based on first principles in high school physics. The amount of work done against a constant opposing force (imagine air resistance) is distance times force. If we assume a constant speed, then there is no net force and no electric energy is converted to kinetic energy, then all the electric energy is for doing the work. Suppose you are driving the same distance but double the speed, that fixed opposing force (air resistance) will quadruple. So doubling your speed consumes four times as much energy but you arrive in only half the time.

This is of course a crude approximation but just drive slower if you have range anxiety.

[birdyrooster]

If only there was some way to transmit the power from the engine to different gear ratios for efficiency at different speeds. That would be the future.

[gamblor956]

A co-worker drove to SLC from LA (abut 700 miles) in their Model 3 a few months ago. It took over 24 hours, including charging along the way, and they had to pre-plan their stops to make sure they could make each charger without their battery dying.

I recently drove to a campground in Yellowstone from LA (about 1000 miles) in an ICE SUV in less than 15 hours, including multiple rest/food breaks and traffic delays in the park due to road work. We didn't plan any stops on the way, and only got gas when we stopped for restroom breaks.

Right now, driving an EV means giving up a significant amount of freedom and turns what should be a pleasant road trip into a stress-inducing chore...and that doesn't even take into account the lack of charging options at home for those of us who don't live in single-family dwellings.

[Sohcahtoa82]

> A co-worker drove to SLC from LA (abut 700 miles) in their Model 3 a few months ago. It took over 24 hours,

....how?

HOW!?

I drive a Model 3. I recently drove from Portland, OR to Santa Clara and back 665 miles each way. Each way only took ~12 1/2 hours.

I'm sorry, but either your co-worker is lying, or they're bad at driving, or there's more to the story. Did they think they need to charge to 100% at each charging stop or something?

[gamblor956]

Portland to Santa Clara is a relatively flat drive. LA to SLC is not, plus a fully-loaded Model 3 in extreme weather (at least, extreme for EVs) and the need to charge multiple times on the way due to charging anxiety related to the lack of chargers en route, the overnight stay in a motel due to the delay related to charging...yeah, it's over 24 hours, easily.

You might want to consider that not everybody is driving themselves; some people have families with them and that changes the calculus of how you approach the drive.

[Sohcahtoa82]

Eh...I just went to ABRP, told it to map me from LA to SLC, assuming 500 kg (1,100 lbs) of extra weight, 0 C temperatures, and some extra range anxiety (Arrive at each charger with at least 30% battery), and it STILL only estimated a total of 12 hours.

[veec_cas_tant]

> A co-worker drove to SLC from LA (abut 700 miles) in their Model 3 a few months ago. It took over 24 hours, including charging along the way, and they had to pre-plan their stops to make sure they could make each charger without their battery dying

Sorry, your co-worker is likely lying... that would mean something like 14 hours of charging per 9 hours of driving which is very far from reality. Easy way to check: https://abetterrouteplanner.com

[gamblor956]

No, they were definitely not lying, and its one of the things that turned them from a Tesla enthusiast into someone who won't be getting a Tesla ever again (ongoing issues with AP/FSD being the other).

Assuming infinite fuel/charge, LA to SLC is 9 hours of driving with good traffic, in temperate weather.

In the winter, temperatures along the way can approach or drop below freezing; in the summer most of the drive is 100+ degree temperatures. In both cases, the temperature drastically lowers range before taking AC/heating into account. This has little to no effect on ICE vehicles (except at the start of the drive when the engine is warming up) but has huge effects on EV vehicles; cold can reduce EV range by as much as 40% and the heat reduces range by about 15%. This means that a Model 3's theoretical range would only be about 200-280 miles. This means the car has to be charged at least twice for the trip to Vegas, and 2-3 times for the trip from Vegas to SLC. It turns out the charging situation is great from LA to Vegas (Barstow, Baker, and Primm) but almost non-existent past Vegas (essentially nothing past Vegas until you reach St George, hence the need to plan stops.

If you're lucky and the Supercharger is available when you need it, great.. Not so great when all the spots are taken, and you're either waiting in the cold/heat or relying on the EA station a few miles down having working charging. Unfortunately, EA stations along this route generally don't have supercharging speeds...

While in Yellowstone I encountered a handful of Teslas from Angelenos who said that it took them the better part of 2 days to get there (but otherwise weren't specific about the time, route, charging situation, etc), so it's not an isolated incident.

Long story short: just because you're a techie and can optimize your EV driving doesn't mean everyone else will. Your experience is the exception, not the norm.

[veec_cas_tant]

I drive an EV (not Tesla) in a part of the country that is cold during the winter, there is no need to explain how it works. You can go into ABRP and change the reference consumption to 50% of the initial value and hopefully understand why no one with any experience will believe it took 24 hours to travel 700 miles on an interstate route with plenty of chargers.

> It turns out the charging situation is great from LA to Vegas (Barstow, Baker, and Primm) but almost non-existent past Vegas (essentially nothing past Vegas until you reach St George...

Both Tesla and EA have chargers 80 miles from Vegas in Mesquite? And something like 14 locations combined between Vegas and SLC?

> ...relying on the EA station a few miles down having working charging. Unfortunately, EA stations along this route generally don't have supercharging speeds...

Every EA station between Vegas and SLC has >= 1 charger at 350 kW, I don't understand what you are saying. Regardless, the charging curve for a Model 3 spends a lot of time <= 150 kW so it doesn't make a ton of difference.

> Long story short: just because you're a techie and can optimize your EV driving doesn't mean everyone else will. Your experience is the exception, not the norm.

This makes sense in parts of the country where fast charging is scarce. The route between LA and SLC is full of chargers, both Tesla and CCS. Tesla handles the routing for you, there is nothing to optimize on this route.

[gamblor956]

Both Tesla and EA have chargers 80 miles from Vegas in Mesquite? And something like 14 locations combined between Vegas and SLC?

They do...now...They did not several months ago when my coworker attempted this drive. At least, none that were working or available.

Every EA station between Vegas and SLC has >= 1 charger at 350 kW

Yes, they do. And they have on average of 0 working chargers at 350 kW, so the theoretical charging speeds are irrelevant.

Tesla handles the routing for you, there is nothing to optimize on this route.

Ah yes, Tesla does such a good job at routing. Just like how it loves to route cars into trucks and stopped vehicles. Just because your experience with your empty Tesla works for you doesn't mean it works for families with greater charging needs.

[veec_cas_tant]

> They do...now...They did not several months ago when my coworker attempted this drive. At least, none that were working or available

The Mesquite EA location has photos on Plugshare dating back to 2019 and the Tesla locations opened in 2021 and 2022. You can check https://supercharge.info for opening dates of the superchargers along the route. EA built that interstate out quite a while ago.

> Just because your experience with your empty Tesla works for you doesn't mean it works for families with greater charging needs.

I don't drive a Tesla but I also don't understand what this means. The route has superchargers and EA chargers all over, damn near perfectly spaced out, and the navigation system includes them in routing. If your coworker took 24 hours on this route, it was not caused by driving an electric vehicle. Again, you can use ABRP, modify the variables, and check for yourself: it is not possible to get anywhere near that amount of charging time on that route regardless of conditions.

[Ologn]

> I recently drove a 2019 Tesla Model 3 from NYC to Montreal via Vermont. Personally, I wouldn't do the route I took in a Tesla (/EV) again. The 'range anxiety' set definitely in during the trip because, when departing NYC, I entered my destination in Vermont and the navigation system showed I'd have 47% battery remaining upon arrival... I ended up arriving with 19% battery and I was in the middle of the nowhere.

I drove from Montréal to New York City in a gasoline powered car late at night, and in the 150+ miles between Plattsburgh and Albany I got range anxiety because I was getting low on gas and couldn't find any gas stations open. Of course this was in the days before smartphones and Google Maps and Gasbuddy etc.

[chrisco255]

Yeah fair enough, before pay-at-the-pump and proliferation of 24HR gas stations and navigation systems, you definitely had to think about your range more, especially in rural areas. But most gas powered cars have at least 300 miles of range. My truck has 720 miles of range. And if you always fill up at half a tank, you'd be hard pressed to find a path to travel on in the U.S. in 2023 that doesn't hit multiple gas stations with 24 hour pump access.

It's also true that running out of gas doesn't require a tow. You just need roadside assistance to bring 5-10 gallons to get you back on the road in minutes.

[oniony]

To be fair, a lot of the roadside assistance companies can now charge your car.

[BluePen7]

Source? Even as an EV owner/enthusiast I find that a little hard to believe.

I find the idea of the portable power fascinating and have watched some YouTube videos on them, but it seems like a very expensive and niche thing so far. I've seen one company on YouTube that showed it off.

I wanted an EV since back when I lived in an apartment, wished there was some sort of big capacitor on wheels I could charge all day from a normal outlet that would then fast charge my car for a few minutes.

Most actual products seem to use batteries and cost thousands, and are for some unique scenario where you somehow can't just public charge. Still find them neat though.

I think they typically just tow you to a charging station, seems a lot easier/faster/cheaper given they already own tow trucks.

In my opinion the only cost effective battery to travel around with would be the one inside an existing EV, I just hope we get beyond household outlet speeds for V2L. Would be neat if a passing EV could rescue at 50kw or something fast.

[code_runner]

If you always fill up at half a tank you get pretty awful range

[kelnos]

GP meant that they avoid range anxiety by filling up (to 100%) when half the tank is remaining. That way if they get into a situation where they can't find a gas station nearby, they still have a half tank remaining to burn to find one.

Sure, you've effectively halved your normal-case range, but a refill of an ICE car is much less of a hit to your trip time than a recharge of an EV, and your best-case range (if you really need it) still remains the same.

[ryzvonusef]

please check the route you drove on "A Better Route Planner". Does the ABPR give a better indication of the driving conditions?

When driving long distances on an EV, I think using ABRP is a must, to have an idea of all alternative routes.