[gjsman-1000]

I think that stores would be far more willing to remove facial recognition if there was a guarantee, a social contract, that shoplifter = police on the scene immediately = arrest = minimum 30 days imprisonment regardless of object size, without bail, sentence time increases by 30 days for each repeat offense within the last three years. Problem solved; we can focus on community programs to reduce the desire to shoplift afterwards.

The facial recognition stuff is the digital equivalent of vigilante justice. The best way to stop vigilante justice of any kind is to have Police do their jobs.

[derekp7]

At the Walmart self checkout, scanning items and putting them in the bags. I noticed that one item scanned, got the normal beep that it scanned correctly, put it in the bag,the bagging area weight check passed, but there was a message in small text where the item description appears, that said "System busy". Next item scanned ok, etc but the previous item didn't appear on the item list. I had to take it out of the bag to scan a second time. If I hadn't noticed "System busy" and the item missing from the list, it wouldn't have appeared on my receipt, and I could have been charged with shoplifting.

Walmart has specifically complained about people shoplifting at the self checkout, but I notice this "scan correctly" followed by "System Busy" message quite frequently.

Oh, and I did an item lookup for produce that had to be weighed, found and selected the item, put it on the scale and it came up as 3 cents. Apparently I was supposed to put it on the scale first, then click the picture. I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED TRAINING AS A CASHIER. I would hate to be put on a "shoplifter" ban list due to bad UI on their software.

[AdamJacobMuller]

30 days on a first offense is excessive I think, but, you have the right idea.

First offense == warning (with police response, handcuffs, etc).

Second offense == 24 hours in jail.

You need to not wreck someone's life for a first offense because if you put a relatively poor but otherwise law abiding person in jail for 30 days after the first offense you're going to destroy their life to the point where the only path for them in the future is crime. Scare them enough to the point where they realize "I don't want this life" but put them in a position where they can avoid it.

[gjsman-1000]

I agree, you are right. I would do that, with maybe 30 days and multiplying for the third offense onward because there has to be a point where the consequences get severe (third strike). But that's just my opinion - my point is more that there has to be something, significant, consistently enforced and stores wouldn't feel the need to do things like this.

[armchairhacker]

This won't work because lots of people accidentally forget to scan things, and any arrest for that is ridiculous. Also, single parents or desperate people stealing bare essentials should not be put in jail.

Actual police response and penalties for theft which is clearly unwarranted (e.g. theft of makeup, electronics, and other non-essentials), especially organized theft, would be great. I don't think stores are losing money on people taking individual loaves of bread and formula, and those can and should just be ignored. But everything else I don't see anyone defending.

[fuzzy2]

Ah yes, let's put even more people in prison. Prisons that are already filled to the brim. I'm sure that's going to help.

[gjsman-1000]

Prison is never an ideal plan; it's the least-bad option.

A. What are you going to do? Let them shoplift whenever they like?

B. Assuming that's not an option, what's your second plan? Give them free counseling and rehabilitation at very high cost (a 30-day drug rehab costs $14,000 - $27,000; and what kind of rehab prevents shoplifting?), even though the recidivism rate for property crimes (like shoplifting) is 78.3%? Let them out on the street after wagging your finger, "please don't do that," only for them to do it again next week?

C. Assuming that's not an option... what option is there left but imprisonment of lengthier and lengthier sentences until the crime rate falls to reasonable levels?

Also, remember that shoplifting is not free. Stores raise prices to cover shoplifting losses, making shoplifting a theft against the community as a whole and not just the store. Stores also close when shoplifting gets too extreme, robbing the whole community of the store's services.

My position is strong law enforcement with stiff penalties; with strong external community programs to help people avoid feeling the need to shoplift, simultaneously. Not one or the other at the expense of the other.

[eesmith]

Every year there's billions of dollars a year in wage theft. The economic cost of just minimum wage violations is about the same as the economic cost of shoplifting, and that's only one type of wage theft.

Surely as an advocate of strong law enforcement, you want wage theft to be criminalized (it's often a civil law, not criminal), with equally stiff penalties, yes? That would be kinda neat - your boss steals $50 of your pay and the police are right there to toss that thief in jail for a month. You boss wouldn't dare illegally split your tips with other staff then!

As an observation, stopping wage theft against people earning minimum wage might even mean they can afford to buy things instead of stealing them.

> A. What are you going to do? Let them shoplift whenever they like?

The world is not all-or-nothing.

For one, the store can hire its own guards instead of using a tax-subsidized police force.

For another, you know that stores plan for and can afford some shrinkage, right? Many stores added self-checkout and mobile checkout despite knowing that shoplifting rates for them are higher than having a cashier.

Should we follow your proposal and use more police to enforce protection against shoplifting, surely many store owners will gladly fire more cashiers.

> Stores also close when shoplifting gets too extreme

Which is rare. "Stores say shoplifting is a national crisis. The numbers don’t back it up" https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/18/business/retail-shoplifti... which also points out that Walgreens backtracked on its claims that it closed five San Francisco stores in 2021 due to organized shoplifting.

It also gives some reasons for why a company might make false claims in the first place.

> with strong external community programs to help people avoid feeling the need to shoplift,

Which programs were you thinking of? If it involves significantly higher taxes on the wealth, including a global wealth tax, resulting in a livable social safety net, then that will likely help reduce shoplifting by a lot.

But some people regard that as too high of a cost.

I don't want to be at the point where we have to decide if Jean Valjean should deserve five years of prison for stealing bread for his starving sister and her family.