[SV_BubbleTime]

Hang on!

I was there in 2008 during carpocalypse.

I’ve typed this before in detail, but this is NOT A LOOPHOLE!

In 2008 Obama came in and made changes to CAFE and CARB with Californias very willing help.

The news headline you might have seen, and just saw again this year with Biden Admin pushing it was “All vehicles to be XX MPG by 20YY”. To which people who know absolutely nothing about vehicles clap for. People who understand vehicles or politics know it’s something else.

What happened was Obama Admin came in and wanted to push towards an economic future that wasn’t technically possible for stoichiometric reasons.

The end result was in meetings with MFGs, the admin knowingly compromised and said “We’ll just judge a vehicle based on its size”. A single vehicle’s emissions could be 1.3 or so if it was 1.3 the footprint of a vehicle at the time.

The MFGs replied and said ”If you are going to grade us on size, we are going to give you size”. And they/we have.

Look at vehicle bodies from 2008 on. Larger every single revision.

You can’t actually legislate technological advances. What you can do is knowingly change the game so “your people” have an advantage.

There is a WHOLE lot of bullshit with CAFE and CARB (which is not just California when you understand the market), and even NHTSA anymore.

But… Do not call an intentional “gift” a loophole. Everyone involved knew exactly what was going to happen.

[dragonwriter]

CAFE has had an exception or lower standard for light trucks and an exception for heavy trucks since 1978, and vehicles used as passenger vehicles but meeting either of the truck categories have been incentivized since then; its not something that started 30 years later.

The rise of SUVs and Minivans was a product of this — in the 1980s, not the late 00s.

[gfdsgfsdgfs]

Not true. CAFE was amended in the late 2000s to provide more fuel restrictions for smaller cars while keeping the same fuel restrictions for bigger cars. The result is bigger cars being made.

[dragonwriter]

> Not true.

What isn't true? Nothing you said, even if it was true (it's not) contradicts anything in the grandparent post.

> CAFE was amended in the late 2000s to provide more fuel restrictions for smaller cars while keeping the same fuel restrictions for bigger cars.

No, it wasn’t. The footprint model within the passenger car class did differentiate by size, but it didn’t provide more restrictions for smaller cars while keeping larger cars the same.

[QuarterReptile]

Do minivans meet the definitions? Mine has a pretty low ground clearance, and I don't think it meets the attack angle requirement, either (which is typically the cheapest.)

Edit: I guess I'm a trucker! The 2013 Odyssey is 19lb. over the minimum GVWR!

[gfdsgfsdgfs]

You're right. A University of Michigan study predicted 12 years ago that cars would be bigger to "comply" with CAFE fuel standards.

https://me.engin.umich.edu/news-events/news/cafe-standards-c...

[raydev]

Hang on, the F-150 and Silverado started ballooning in the late 90s. The Hummer came, Nissan introduced their Titan truck in 2004, the Toyota Tundra got massive. All years before 2008.

Regulations may have well prevented reversal, but the buying public was clearly already making its preferences loud and clear.

[SV_BubbleTime]

Airbags, crash testing, NHTSA, fuel injection / data bussing, small changes to CAFE, comfort options, and emissions equipment all made vehicles get slightly larger, that’s true. But not “ballooning”.

The 2004 Nissan Titan you mentioned was smaller in every single dimension and aspect over its comparative 2004 Dodge Ram. That was Nissan trying to play big boy, but was nothing unusual.

I’m talking about everything. Take an entire line from a MFG and look at its model over model changes.

Find a vehicle that decreased in wheelbase. I wish you luck in your search.

[raydev]

> I’m talking about everything. Take an entire line from a MFG and look at its model over model changes.

Yes, I agree that every car was getting bigger well before 2008.

[gfdsgfsdgfs]

There were more fuel restrictions for smaller cars after the CAFE amendment of the late aughts. Automakers were incentivized to build bigger cars to get around the restrictions.

[inferiorhuman]

  I’ve typed this before in detail, but this is NOT A LOOPHOLE!

Sure it is. Going back to whenever, heavier vehicles classed as light trucks (or worse) have been subject to less stringent emissions and safety requirements. That's generally what folks are referring to when they mention regulations favoring trucks.

  Look at vehicle bodies from 2008 on. Larger every single revision.

That's been generally true since the fuel crisis subsided in the 70s.

[gnramires]

Interesting. So you're saying small trucks aren't technically viable under current US legislation? That seems like a glaring emission indeed. Why not just create a light truck category with more lax emission standards? (I suppose it's not too difficult to disallow normal cars from qualifying as light trucks to get higher emissions?)

[SV_BubbleTime]

So, fun stuff!

There are light trucks. The ranger, Tacoma, Colorado, gladiator, etc. They make money, but not like the bigger trucks.

They’re also larger than 1/4 ton trucks of decades ago.

There is a side game with CAFE. Things like the 2DR Wrangler exist - so Jeep could sell more 4DR wranglers and Gladiators. You balance what you have to make with what makes money.

A LOT of Tesla’s financial history is wrapped up in them selling California “carbon credits” (not sure the actual process) to GM, Stellanis, Ford so they then are allowed to sell more trucks in California.

All the mfgs take a small to medium loss on their small cars so they can average their line out. Dodge small cars haven’t made money so long as I have been working in automotive.

If you want an example of nonsense, find a new Tacoma and look between the grill and the front of the radiator. There is more than a FOOT of empty internal space in there.

Being in this industry taught me a lot out government regulation and how it’s almost never what it seems. Regulations exist entirely to be worked-around and not built to. If we built cars to regulations they would all look identical and be pretty poor at everything.

In other countries, vehicles are organzied and taxed by class. Where light trucks can emit more than SUVs the idea being they are needed for work instead of for comfort. This system is gamed too. For example, let’s say Indonesia, it’s far cheaper to get a 4DR Jeep Gladiator than a smaller 2DR Jeep Wrangler. The tax on the latter is high. Both are premium vehicles there.

Regulations exist to be worked around or to be expensive for anyone but your friends to manage. Once you accept that, it makes a lot of decisions make more sense.

[PeterCorless]

Glaring *omission. But apropos typo ftw!

[jackmott42]

Sounds like a loophoole to me. You just wanted to get in a swipe at Obama, which is fine, he screwed up here.

[SV_BubbleTime]

No, I voted for Obama.

I was working a Chrysler when this went down. I was in the room for some of these meetings.

But, you believe whatever you want. Everyone involved knew exactly what was happening. There was no “oops, we didn’t know that would happen loophole”.

[silisili]

I think it's just people defining loophole differently. In our minds, it sure sounds like some unintended trickery to get around a rule. I think OP is saying that it was known and intentional. Is it still a loophole? By definition, I think it is, but not how it's usually used.

[malfist]

That's right, thanks obama for big trucks.

Seriously though, this law wasn't passed in 2008. It was passed in 2012, after democrats lost control of the house. This "gift" as you call it, was an appeasement to republicans to get them to vote increase MPG in general.

[SV_BubbleTime]

You do realize things don’t happen overnight right?

The new Obama admin came in and said “you are going to do this” in 2008. Everyone knew it was happening. Things take a little bit of time from the backend to the front end.

Remember what was happening at the time. TARP, carapocalypse (bailout of GM and Chrysler, massive re-org at Ford).

Today, I’m working products on 2032 vehicles. Spoiler alert, they’re still gas and won’t get 55mpg.