[cypress66]

I can't believe the EU, which has fined Microsoft because of having IE as the default browser, is OK with Apple having a total walled garden in iOS. Which by the way only has one "browser", because other browsers are forced to use the safari engine.

[lapcat]

> I can't believe the EU, which has fined Microsoft because of having IE as the default browser, is OK with Apple having a total walled garden in iOS.

They aren't ok with it. The EU recently passed the Digital Markets Act. But some of the provisions don't take effect until 2024.

[Varloom]

By May 2024 every iPhone in EU will be allowed to install alternative app stores legally.

It's only a problem for the rest of the world.

[tgv]

MS was fined because it had an enormous market share in personal computing, making it practically a monopoly. Apple is nowhere near that.

[postalrat]

Apple has a sizable share of the mobile market in the USA and EU and what they are doing goes well beyond what MS did in the past.

[photonerd]

They have 31% of the market, not even a third.

They’re not even in the same league as what MS was doing. At the time of the EU vs MS suit they had a 91% market share, and had only recently come down from a fraction over 95%

THAT is why the EU took action. Apple isn’t in a monopoly position in phones at all, they’re not even the dominant OS.

What they are, is the one that makes the most money.

[newaccount74]

You are right that Apple does not have a monopoly on phones. But that does not mean that their behaviour is not anti-competitive.

[photonerd]

Almost all companies behavior is anti-competitive in some way. They rarely (tho occasionally) try to promote competition.

Requiring Play services so much is anti-competitive by Google.

Anti-competitive behavior isn’t, by itself, an issue. At least… it’s only an issue ideologically speaking.

[SllX]

As far as EU jurisdiction goes the only stat that matters is the EU. If Apple had 100% of market share in the US, the EU would still have no governing power.

Based off what I found through a quick search, in Q4 2022 Apple has 29% of smartphone shipment and they have about 38% of mobile OS share. Not tiny, but not dominating the market. Back when Microsoft was being prosecuted, they had >95% of desktop OS share, approaching 99% in some places, and they were accused of leveraging that to muscle out paid-for software vendors that sold directly competing software (both operating systems through exclusivity agreements with OEMs and application software on Windows).

[veave]

They don't even have half the market in the EU. They aren't a monopoly by any stretch of the imagination.

[zimzam]

This is missing context: Microsoft made their browser free at a time when Netscape cost $49.

Apple giving away Safari for free at a time when all major web browsers are free is different. Sure, Apple might benefit from being the default but Spotify and Pandora, which compete with Apple Music, are both still in Apple's app store.

[SpaghettiCthulu]

The context you're missing is that Apple doesn't allow any third-party browser engines on iOS for "security".

[lockhouse]

Why the quotes? Apps bundling their own outdated web views using old versions of Chromium or WebKit are a legitimate security threat. By forcing every web view to use the fully up to date system bundled one, you automatically eliminate dozens of security vulnerabilities.

Nothing forces anyone to buy an iPhone. They don’t even have a majority of market share. In the late 90s-2000s, Microsoft actually held a monopoly on PCs. Smartphones on the other hand are a very healthy duopoly with diversity and cross pollination of ideas.

[zerohp]

Three companies have wall gardens for game consoles and nobody cares about that. Those three companies own the entire console market. There's no alternative.

Why doesn't the EU do something about that? Why is Apple an exception?

[kibwen]

This comment makes it sound like Apple shouldn't be forced to open up their hardware, but the better conclusion is that game consoles should be forced to open up their hardware. This is (allegedly) Hacker News, we should be all for giving people more control over the devices they (allegedly) own.

[lockhouse]

Just don’t buy closed devices if that’s what you want. There’s no shortage of open devices available to buy.

Complaining about iPhones and game consoles being closed is like complaining that your Honda Civic isn’t good at off-roading and won’t tow your horse trailer.

[newaccount74]

> There’s no shortage of open devices available to buy.

I'd like an open device that supports iMessage and Facetime.

I don't understand why I should have to give up all the iOS software that I really like just because I want to run one app on my device that Apple doesn't allow.

[fsflover]

Which open consoles can I buy nowadays?

[lockhouse]

Buy a PC.

There is also dev mode on Xbox One and later consoles:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/xbox-dev-mode/9nljhzjrn0f4...

[dotnet00]

"Walled gardens" when MS has a policy of porting all their games to Windows and also offers an official way for users to run custom software on the device.

Agreed on the other two though, both should also be forced to open up.

[theshrike79]

Remember: everything you blame Apple of also applies to Sony (Playstation) and Microsoft (Xbox).

Exact same thing.

A phone isn't a "general computing device" like a PC any more than a gaming console is. So if Apple has to allow 3rd party stuff on their phones, it must be so for PS and Xbox too.

[error503]

Good, I don't know why I should have a problem with that?

Though I disagree that a phone is not a 'general computing device' moreso than a gaming console is, it is hard to come up with a legally-clear definition of one.

[newaccount74]

Yeah, a phone is definitely a "general computing device", while a video console arguably is not. But considering that you can watch Youtube on a Nintendo Switch, I think they should maybe be considered "general computing devices" as well.

[theshrike79]

How so, the last two generations of Xbox and PS consoles have been pretty much off-the-shelf hardware.

The Xbox and PS5 are literally using an AMD Zen2 CPU and an AMD GPU, nothing weirdly custom like the PS3's "emotion engine".

There's no reason they couldn't run a standard Linux or even Windows. They have HDMI ports, USB and everything just like a normal PC. Even the PS3 with it's super weird processing system had a _native_ Linux version provided by Sony[0].

Why aren't people up in arms insisting that Microsoft and Sony allow us to install Linux on "our hardware", but are so very pressed when they can't do that with a phone? Why is a console walled garden perfectly fine, but on a phone it's anathema? Are people still thinking of the NES when they hear "console"?

[0] Yes, it was there to dodge import taxes, but still =)

[error503]

It's pretty clear when you look at both how these devices are used, and how they are marketed, that there is a difference between the products' purpose.

However you are right, it is hard to make an unambiguous distinction, so I am with you - consoles should also be forcibly opened up. I do strongly hold the philosophical view that if you own any computing device you, as the owner should have absolute control of what that device trusts as far as any cryptographic 'locks' are concerned. The place where this seems to have both a) the largest negative impact on the market and b) the best chance of people caring and doing something about it, seems to be with mobile computing, so that is where the voice are the loudest, but personally at least, I hold the same view about any device.

Our society has long held that reverse engineering is perfectly acceptable when it comes to interoperability / competition, even if the OEM doesn't appreciate it. Now, we have progressed technologically to the point that an OEM can literally prevent any reasonable manner of that, if they want to. I just don't think our laws / society have really caught up with that fact yet, but for me it follows directly from the reasoning behind allowing reverse engineering that we shouldn't allow this.

So I don't know why you keep bringing this up as if it is a counterpoint. Yes, it's a similar situation, and yes anything we do about Apple should apply to Sony as well.

[waihtis]

A bunch of bureaucrats somehow outsmarting one of the most well resourced and talented machineries out there is the thing I am skeptical about. The two systems are not equal by a long shot.

[EMIRELADERO]

I don't think calling the EU "a bunch of bureaucrats" is accurate.

I also love how "bureaucrat" ended up meaning "any government body which does stuff I don't like"

[reaperman]

While I personally agree with your latter sentiment, the Merriam-Webster dictionary defines bureaucrat to be simply, “a member of a bureaucracy”. Where the top definition of bureaucracy is:

a) : a body of nonelected government officials

or

b) : an administrative policymaking group

So really, any government is a bureaucracy.

[babypuncher]

A government is by definition a bureaucracy, but so is any private corporation. Any organization of sufficient size becomes one out of necessity. Any time you have a bunch of people together and you need to establish any kind of pattern for how things get done, you have a bureaucracy.

What is funny is the way people use the word derisively, as if bureaucracy is inherently evil in some way. Bureaucracy is like math, it is netiehr good nor bad, it simply is. Like math, it can be used to do good or bad things.

[ttepasse]

According to (b) any large company, including Apple, is a bureaucracy.

[reaperman]

That feels accurate. For the parts of the company which are "policy-making", at least.

[lockhouse]

If only someone like Samsung or Google would make a phone that allows side loading to meet your needs. Too bad Apple is the only option here.

[timeon]

Microsoft had dominant position while Apple is minority. How can one even compare this?