[mo_42]

> If the universe is deterministic, how can punitive justice be justified?

Determinism doesn't necessarily mean that organisms always act in the same way. They act in the same way given the exact configuration of them and the world.

Obviously, justice changes the configuration of an organism (fines, prison, ...). To me it boils down to the question whether justice decreases the likelihood to commit crimes again. Given that our systems of justice have evolved over a long time, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt.

[b1daly]

this is my pet peeve with discussions of ‘free will’ they have an implicit definition—everything being exactly the same at a different time or place—that is non-sensical as far as we know.

I’m still disturbed by peoples confidence in a deterministic universe—I suppose such confidence is based on the success of inductive reasoning but inductive reasoning is a phenomenon based on how our minds work.

As far as I know the philosophical problem of causation is not considered solved?

In any case, elements of randomness seem likely to play a role in human intelligence but what that role is, who knows?

[RhodesianHunter]

Our justice systems have evolved over a long time, and thus include many remnants of earlier times when prevailing values were much different than they are today. I'd be wary about giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[trashtester]

If you try to do some semi-random change to large body of code that you don't understand, chances are much higher that you break the system than of you making it significantly better.

The same goes for culture. Most changes tend to have unexpected consequences, and if you try to change everything at once, society tends to collapse.