[jimmyswimmy]

A strange document. Clearly written for public release but containing reactions of apparently sensitive clarification markings.

Moreover it contains absolutely nothing of well publicized US involvement in relevant coronavirus research with WIV.

I'm definitely curious of what DOE facilities have scientists and researchers who would have useful opinions on coronavirus. This article just reminded me more of that question.

Very strange paper.

[kyrra]

Look into the history of the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and the Z Division.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-Division

From another source:

> The program also provides innovative analysis to anticipate new and developing terrorist threats involving the use of chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear, and explosive weapons and investigate opportunities to counter them. Z Program also works to understand the state of foreign weapons of mass destruction programs; informs U.S. counterproliferation decisions, policies, and efforts; and develops supporting technology solutions to dissuade or prevent states from acquiring WMD-related technologies, materials, and expertise.

Basically their nuclear expertise plus the Cold war (and 9/11) caused them to become a central actor within the US government to look into biological, chemical, and related weapons. So they have a lot of cross discipline expertise there now.

Edit: also see: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2023/03/01/z-di...

[photochemsyn]

DOE lab Sandia at least was closely involved with analysis of the anthrax powder in the letters mailed to Senators Daschle and Leahy on 10/09/2001. Note that this research didn't support the Bruce Ivins hypothesis as he didn't have the technical capacity required:

> "Not only did the Sandia researchers spot silicon, they also found tin, oxygen, and iron all within the spore. The researchers, led by Sandia chemist Joseph Michael, have presented their findings at various scientific meetings since 2008, reporting the presence of all the elements found. But because silicon had always been in the investigative limelight, tin never got much attention. Until now. The new paper puts the spotlight on tin, which the authors claim has been brushed under the carpet by FBI investigators. The FBI has "avoided public mention of the extraordinary presence of Tin," the paper says."

https://www.science.org/content/article/new-challenge-fbis-a...

While it's perhaps not widely known, the DOE National Labs have the best technical capabilities for investigating anything related to nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons whether of nation-state, terrorist-group, or lone-nut origin.

[shusaku]

It’s amazing that we’re literally talking about a major geopolitical rival’s negligence leading to the deaths of millions of people, but the right wing talking point continues to be “how can we pin this on Fauci?” Americans have been taught to hate each other more than anyone else.

[splendor_spoon]

Conservatives need for the lab leak theory to be correct as they were wrong about basically all other points on covid. They refused to believe in masks, lockdowns, and social distancing and paid the ultimate price at a much higher rate. [0]

[0] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2022/03/03/the-changing...

[pasquinelli]

i had no idea the lab leak theory was conservative. i suppose it was silly of me not to realize every opinion that a person can have has already been claimed by liberals or conservatives, such that holding that opinion means you're more liberal/less conservative, or more conservative/less liberal.

[Clent]

Unfortunately, American politics end up being very divisive. The right has been calling this the China virus since the beginning. Anything that can be used to show that's 'true' will result in the right's echo chamber amplifying it.

As for the left, well I am not sure there is an official position other than waiting for more data. China is definitely sus but they are always like that from a western perspective so I don't know that I weight it much.

Other than the smugness in watching the right be wrong again, I am not aware of anyone on the left that is invested in either outcome.

It's a matter of waiting for the crucial data being found. How long did it take us to pin point the source of other pandemics?

This stuff takes time.

Internet speculation only takes seconds.

[brnaftr361]

In anticipation of vindication, does the "left" not themselves then hope for the release of information which runs counter to their opponents, thus by consensus, a sword to fall on? Since without it their silly little sports team would be on the losing side. And of course in the event they're wrong they can run back to their echo chambers and self-manufacture plausible deniability. As will the right if proven wrong. In both cases either side wants to be correct — just for that little hit of "I told you so."

Of course this is all just silly bullshit. I have some inkling of hope that the truth will be made plain, but that's so implausible given current regimes and political paradigms that the only reasonable thing to do is ignore whatever is concluded, at least anytime in our lifetimes.

[rootusrootus]

> i suppose it was silly of me not to realize every opinion that a person can have has already been claimed by liberals or conservatives

It's a political topic, so it naturally has positions staked out by both sides. There's not much reason to care about it one way or the other unless you have a tribal viewpoint.

[hsjqllzlfkf]

> Conservatives need for the lab leak theory to be correct as they were wrong about basically all other points on covid

This is the most persuasive point I've read on HN the entire week, thank you.

[nomel]

It would be interesting to see this with better detail, like age, weight, etc.

[kyrra]

I don't think your link proves your point like you think it does. It's a correlation, not causation. The question is, what other variables may impact conservatives.

One of the main factors in if you die from getting covid is age. And conservatives tend to be older.

I would love to see an age normalized version of that data. I'd bet it would be about a wash.

[rootusrootus]

The only people in my circle of friends and family who died from COVID were middle age or older obese men who were ideologically opposed to taking a vaccine. I do have a number of conservative friends & family who did vaccinate, none of them got more than the sniffles.

[jhugo]

Anecdotally, there are plenty of people with obesity or other risk factors who died despite being fully vaccinated.

Meanwhile, I had a confirmed COVID infection early on, before vaccines were available, and had nothing more than the sniffles. I then had two more confirmed infections after having three vaccine doses, and had the same sniffles.

These anecdotes, like yours, are not very useful since they only confirm what we already know: no vaccine is 100% effective, and no risk factor is a death sentence.

[rootusrootus]

Agreed, anecdotes don't have too much meaning. But we do have pretty good statistics to back up the effectiveness of the vaccines.

[brnaftr361]

Huh, the vaccine uptake where I live was aberrantly low. Highly conservative. I know lots of older people, including many retired, of retirement age. I don't know anyone who has suffered a fatality from the disease - and many of those I do know who contracted would have contracted the alpha variant prior to vaccine deployment.

[rootusrootus]

The largest group of fatalities in my friend/family group were late in the delta wave, right before it faded out and got replaced by omicron.

[MarkMarine]

conservatives want the lab leak theory to be correct? They controlled the levers of power at the time and didn’t do anything about it, didn’t get redress for the death, suffering, loss, and economic harm. I would expect they’d want the waters as muddy as possible.

[asynchronous]

Wow, what a statement considering literally everything you just listed turned out to be a complete joke. I could not have made a better argument to prove a point.

[brigadier132]

> They refused to believe in masks,

As someone that believed in masks from the very beginning. The CDC and Fauci himself said masks were useless at the start of the pandemic. Stop being a pawn.

[unethical_ban]

My understanding is that they said that as a path to avoid hoarding of N95 supplies which they knew were in short supply for those who most needed it at the time, medical professionals.

That doesn't aren't right, precisely because it validates conspiracy minded people.

[slowturtle]

The point is that Fauci and the CDC lied to the public about the efficacy of masks, even if they lied with "good" intentions. They simply could've explained that supplies were low and asked people not to hoard them. Instead they lied (one of many times) and acted surprised when people started distrusting them.

[nomel]

> That doesn't aren't right, precisely because it validates conspiracy minded people.

That’s putting it far too lightly. It proved a “conspiracy” 100% true. I had masks early in the pandemic only because a “nutty” colleague said “they’re going to try to take the masks from us” and he brought me a box.

[unethical_ban]

I agree it was terrible, because it undermines public trust.

But now people use those statements to say "aha you people are silly for wearing masks" when that old comment is clearly, well, out of date.

[revelio]

That's the explanation they came up with for why they were lying, but these people are self-admitted liars so why would you believe their lies any further?

If you are in charge of government and worried about mask availability, the right thing to do is pass laws seizing mask supplies. This is easy because they were almost all being imported from China anyway.

The worst possible thing to do would be to assert with 100% confidence that for scientific reasons masks don't work to the entire population including healthcare workers, and then later invert your position over night. Anyone who thinks this is a reasonable way to manage material logistics is clearly far too stupid to be in charge of anything, let alone critical government functions.

[0xy]

Lockdowns were a failure, hence why millions of children were irreparably damaged by them socially and academically.

The legacy of lockdown proponents is plummeting test scores and massive IQ drops, because children were merely collateral damage to their hypochondria. [1] [2]

[1] https://www.npr.org/2023/06/21/1183445544/u-s-reading-and-ma...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/children-born-...