[kunwon1]

I have worked professionally with access control and surveillance. I can give you two manufacturer recommendations: Axis and Geovision.

Axis cameras are high end and expensive, but they will, in my experience, do anything an IP camera could reasonably be expected to do, and they will do it well. They are European in origin and are available from various retail outlets to ship this week.

Geovision cameras are low end and not expensive. They are Taiwanese in origin and are pretty easy to find.

I have personally configured a wide range of cameras from both of these manufacturers and I have never needed an app or internet connectivity. It's been a few years since I looked at Geovision's product lineup though, my information is not 100% current. I don't have any specific camera recommendations. If I were setting up a home NVR today, I would buy Geovision cameras and put them on an isolated network.

Both of these manufacturers are nominally ONVIF compliant (ONVIF compliance is a mixed bag and can't be fully trusted from any manufacturer IMO) and have readily accessible RTSP streams

[EvanAnderson]

I'll throw out a word of support for both Geovision and Axis.

My Geovision experience is also not current either. I've got three Customers using their cameras in isolated VLANs w/o Internet access. Both hardware and software reliability have been very good. Some of the outdoor units are coming up on 7 years old and still working fine. I think, in total, there are around 300 (mostly indoor) cameras in all their systems combined.

I work at a site w/ >100 Axis cameras, also w/o Internet access. They're phenomenal devices-- built like tanks-- but very expensive. I particularly like that you get root on the cameras (which are running Linux). There are third-party applications that can run directly on the cameras.

[bradfitz]

Another recommendation for Axis here. I've used dozens of them for almost 20 years now and they've been rock solid, technically and support-wise.

But they're expensive. They do have cheaper models nowadays, though. In addition to explosion-proof ones: https://www.axis.com/en-us/products/explosion-protected-came...

[EvanAnderson]

Fun story re: the term "explosion-proof":

I was given a tour of an industrial facility where conditions required explosion-proof equipment. The tour guide made a point of calling out the explosion-proof motors in one of the rooms.

One of the other tour group members asked the question "Why would it matter if these motors survived an explosion?"

I visualized the facility exploding in a fiery blaze and a motor, fully intact, tracing a high parabola into the sky and landing, unscathed, in the front yard of a house.

The tour guide had to awkwardly answer: "Explosion-proof means that it won't cause an explosion."

[AdamJacobMuller]

I don't think it's a silly question, my first thought about explosion proof would also be able to survive some level of explosion.

Especially for cameras in potentially hazardous or critical areas, being able to capture details of their final moments could be important (obviously great to have cameras which [also] don't cause explosions in the first place).

I can also think of many situations in which you would want motors which are rated to survive for some time through an explosion, for example something which is powering a fire sprinkler or ventilation system to give people time to escape. The military has "battle switches" on lots of equipment for this reason, better to remove safeties and destroy the equipment than have the equipment protect itself and stop working in a critical situation, potentially costing a soldier their life.

[EvanAnderson]

It's definitely not a silly question. I shared it because I really enjoyed the image that came to my mind when it happened.

It was a formative experience for me, too. I try really, really hard to explain terms-of-art to my audience if I'm unsure of their familiarity. "Reading the room" can be difficult sometimes so I try to always preface w/ "Stop me if you know this already...".

I also learned not to be afraid to speak up when terminology isn't familiar to me. I've no doubt that's made me look ill-informed in some situations. I'll always take the judgement of others re: my knowledge vs. acting on a bad assumption later.

There are consequences (sometimes significant ones) from assuming somebody knows what you're talking about. People who act like they understand something when they don't (either because they're afraid to ask, or because they don't know they don't understand) are dangerous.

[AdamJacobMuller]

> The tour guide had to awkwardly answer

That bit made me think otherwise.

> I also learned not to be afraid to speak up when terminology isn't familiar to me.

100% agreed. I don't care much if others think I'm stupid. I care about actually being educated and understanding the situation. If someone thinks me asking questions makes me stupid, I'm probably better off with them thinking that and avoiding me for it :)

[EvanAnderson]

> > The tour guide had to awkwardly answer

> That bit made me think otherwise.

I could have phrased that better. It was clearly awkward for the tour guide. I think the guide could have handled it in a less awkward way— maybe with some humor.

I found it amusing by way of the image it created in my mind, but that shouldn’t be taken as me discouraging others asking questions.

[dingaling]

> "Explosion-proof means that it won't cause an explosion."

Surely that should be "non-explosive".

Otherwise rain-proof and fire-proof could have interesting overloaded definitions...

[idbehold]

> Explosion-proof means that it won't cause an explosion

Wait, what? The implication is that their other cameras regularly cause explosions?

[mcpherrinm]

A regular light switch might spark as you flip it, or a power switch on electronics.

Some electronics use a spark gap as a form of surge protection:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_gap#/media/File:PCB_Spar...

None of that would be acceptable in an environment that requires intrinsically safe equipment.

The electronics also need to be carefully current-limited so there's no chance they overheat and cause an explosion that way too.

[somerandomqaguy]

The term is Intrinsically Safe. It's for equipment that is guaranteed won't be an ignition source, specifically intended for things intended to be operating in confined areas where there's a danger that combustible gases can build up.

[hedgehog]

To reinforce, this is harder to achieve than it might seem. Sparking in switches and buttons and electrostatic discharge both are kind of invisible in normal environments but can be disaster on an oil rig or in an area of a hospital where pure oxygen is flowing. All the paperwork and monitoring to make sure that the design is correct and that the manufacturing stays within spec costs money too.

[woofcat]

It has been certified that it can/shouldn't produce any sparks or arcs in the event that it's in a gas filled room.

[c_o_n_v_e_x]

That's only for one form of explosion protection. Some methods of protection are for explosion prevention, other forms are mitigation.

Explosion proof / flame proof enclosures don't prevent explosions. Their sole purpose is to contain the explosion and to ensure that the gases escaping from the enclosure do not ignite the surrounding atmosphere. The beauty of a flameproof enclosure is that I can put standard, non-protected electronics into an enclosure and use them in a hazardous area. It's a much more affordable way of deploying electronics into hazardous areas, rather than designing from scratch and certifying.

[kevin_thibedeau]

Yes. There are non-sparking explosion proof hand tools that need to be used in such environments. Naturally, electronics are a hazard as well.

[c_o_n_v_e_x]

>Wait, what? The implication is that their other cameras regularly cause explosions?

Non-explosion protected electronics... sure. All you need is an atmosphere of sufficient concentration and a spark with sufficient ignition energy OR a hot surface that is above the atmosphere's auto ignition temperature (think a hot resistor on a PCB). Some chemicals have absurdly low auto ignition temperatures or ignition energies. Engineers must spec equipment for chemicals they expect to encounter within the hazardous area. Engineers also have to factor in how often the flammable atmosphere will be present. All of this is spelled in out IEC60079 for Europe and RoW. US has their own standards.

[palotasb]

Think about oil rigs or coal mines where all electronics are potential sources of sparks/arcs and thus explosions.

[c_o_n_v_e_x]

Coal mining equipment explosion protection is particularly onerous as you have to protect against dust (coal dust) and gas explosions (methane).

[kayfox]

> "Explosion-proof means that it won't cause an explosion."

Another industry term for this is Intrinsically Safe.

[Animats]

They're not the same. Intrinsically Safe means it has too little energy in it to cause ignition. Explosion-proof can be achieved either by intrinsic safety or an enclosure capable of containing the worst that can happen inside it.[1]

[1] https://blog.pruftechnik.com/intrinsically-safe-vs-explosion...

[Graffur]

TIL thanks

[silisili]

Interesting. I'd have made the same assumption. GPs link uses the term 'explosion protected', and is definitely talking about the former, being safe in an explosion.

[adolph]

One of the "explosion proof" ones even has a little windshield washer/wiper!

XPQ1785

Starts the washer. When the sequence starts, the camera moves to the configured position to receive the wash spray. When the whole wash sequence is completed, the camera returns to its previous position. This icon is only visible when the washer is connected and configured.

Starts the wiper.*

https://help.axis.com/en-us/axis-xpq1785

[ce4]

Axis is cool, they once even had (still have?) their own CPU / ISA (ETRAX CRIS) plus a Linux port:

https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/cris/README

Edit: Official Linux support was removed with 4.17 in 2018

https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/6/3/142

[kayfox]

The ETRAX CRIS has been superseded by ARM Cortex-M in the latest ARTPEC (Axis Real Time Picture Encoder Chip) chips these days. For a period of time in between those two architectures the ARTPEC chips used MIPS as a core.

[sebcat]

Still used a bunch of CRIS cores for ARTPEC-6 for scheduling scaler and trfm jobs and some other things, are they completely gone now?

[thewebcount]

Christ on a cracker, Axis' website is horrible! I saw one model that looked interesting, but can't find a price. You have to click on "How to Buy" to get redirected to another page where you then have to click on "Find a Reseller Near Me" which takes you to a form you have to fill out with a bunch of personal information and then send to them, and maybe someone will get back to you. How do these companies stay in business?

[shostack]

You aren't their target customer. Installers and resellers already know them or have a lower friction way to buy. They want you to work through resellers and not have to bother with supporting you directly.

[LordDragonfang]

By selling mostly to business clients, where that sort of nonsense (no prices up front, contact for a quote) is more of a norm. Entities that are buying a dozen or dozens of cameras and other items to outfit a building, and plan on negotiating on volume.

[cbzoiav]

The price isn't listed because it depends on bulk, anticipated support and support contracts (ongoing revenue), anticipated future sales etc.

If an independent shop wants 2 cameras you charge them enough to make a profit on the overhead of dealing with them (or point them to a retailer if they want less than a pallet).

If Walmart want 2 cameras to try out you give them (or loan them) to them for free knowing if they like them you'll be shipping them by the pallet for years.

[starky]

The security camera industry works through a network of integrators that install the cameras for end customers. These companies are primarily B2B, they don't have any interest in B2C sales of just a couple cameras.

[l33tman]

Axis doesn't sell to customers directly (not even to businesses), they sell exclusively to distributors that in turn sell to well-stocked online computer stores from where you can buy them like any other tech product

[unwind]

Classic nit pick triggered by at least some national tech pride: Axis Communications [1] is from Sweden. Founded in 1984, they are pretty cool.

Edit: added missing word.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_Communications

[bejd]

Can also recommend Axis. At work we've got a server with a couple hundred cameras connected and they're extremely reliable. Software is easy to use, regular firmware updates (even for older cameras), and in my few dealings with Axis support they've been great.

[binkHN]

> ...regular firmware updates (even for older cameras)...

Such a rarity nowadays--great to hear.

[Pr0ject217]

I did a fairly generic search for Geovision and landed on this: https://www.acronis.com/en-us/blog/posts/backdoor-wide-open-...

(not to fear-monger, just something to note)

[red-iron-pine]

> Acronis’ security team found four critical vulnerabilities in GeoVision's devices, including a backdoor password with admin privileges, the reuse of cryptographic keys, and the disclosure of private keys to everyone. All of these vulnerabilities could allow state-sponsored attackers to intercept potential traffic.

[akerl_]

I can second this. I have several Axis M1065-LW cameras inside (running on wall plugs and wifi) and several Axis P1447-LE externally (running on PoE).

Would recommend both of them. Notably, I had one exterior camera fail (wouldn’t run off PoE), and the Axis support/RMA process was smooth and fast.

[kova12]

P1447-LE is sold for over $500 used. What is it that's inside of that camera, which makes it so pricey?!

[akerl_]

It's a workhorse. It operates at a decent resolution/FPS, as security cameras go, it can handle pretty much any weather conditions, and Axis will stand by it if it breaks.

It also, relevantly for this thread, will do standard video transmission w/o any cloud/app components.

Most camera you get that are cheaper are trading off in one or more of these areas to recoup cost.

[dboreham]

The fact that someone will reply to your support email and fix bugs?

[strunz]

And not supply your video feed to the CCP.

[nominallyn]

I'm thinking of running outdoor Axis cameras. Do you have any advice or links on how to route these safely, including grounding and surge protection? Mine will be mounting on the roof soffit.

[jmuguy]

If you're going to use PoE (you should) you can get in line surge protectors. Although to be honest - I've used PoE cameras for years, both in the home and professionally, and never bothered with these. I'm not sure what they're protecting against, unless you think lightning is going to strike the camera itself.

Otherwise its just a single ethernet line from the camera to your switch, Axis cameras (and any others that support PoE and outdoor installs) have a nice shielded bit that the cable goes into at the camera end so its protected from the elements.

[dboreham]

I'd advise caution - lightning energy coupled onto a low voltage conductor can set fire to property and possibly harm people. Best to take a conservative approach if it's not your property and other people might be harmed. A direct strike is not necessary to have serious effects.

[akerl_]

Maybe I'm just naive, but I've got 5 of them mounted externally. They're attached to in-wall rated CAT6 cable, but otherwise aren't grounded or surge protected. None of them are above 60% of the height of the walls they're mounted on, but even if I mounted them higher I'm not too worried.

[dheera]

RTSP streams never work, they always have several seconds of latency, and web browsers don't support them well if at all. Someone should invent a webcam that directly speaks WebRTC. Open a HTTPS connection and POST a SDP to get it started.

[LeFantome]

What? ONVIF is RTSP under the hood. Literally the entire professional surveillance industry is based on RTSP.

[dheera]

Yeah it all sucks. I've tried just about everything. Massive latency. Enough for a bad guy to get away in many cases. I've seen even upwards of 30 seconds. We really need WebRTC. Badly.

[atyppo]

Geovision has had a ton of security incidents. Perhaps they're easy to set up, but they definitely aren't secure.

[exhilaration]

You shouldn't expose any of these cameras, high end or low end, to the internet. You shouldn't even trust them on the same VLAN as the rest of you computers or phones. That mitigates security issues.

[EvanAnderson]

To echo: In small installs I don’t give the cameras a default gateway and put a NIC (physical or virtual) in-subnet with the cameras. Nothing else goes in the subnet.

In larger installs it’s a VRF dedicated to the camera subnets and a similar dedicated NIC arrangement on the server.

Nothing should talk to the cameras except the recording server they’re streaming to.

[angry_octet]

And you should consider that the ethernet endpoint of each camera may be accessible, perhaps with only limited physical breakage, and provide an entry point onto the network. Having each device on its own /30 is one way to do that, with routing restricted to talking to the server, or you might have a private VLAN feature on your switch. You can have multicast from the cameras go to other devices though.

Annoyingly, few TVs have multicast receivers, it's all Chromecast etc, so you need your own computers to decode and display.

[reassembled]

I second the recommendation for Axis cameras. They have LAN only streaming options built in.

You can find older used HD resolution Axis cams fairly inexpensively on eBay. They have a lot of different chassis/lens configurations and a lot model numbers so some research might be required to find the right camera configuration for your desired use case, especially if searching through the used market for models that have been discontinued by Axis.

[vermilingua]

To add to this: search the catalog of whatever access control / electronic security wholesaler is local to your country. Almost all stock IP CCTV cameras and peripherals, and it's an easy way to get an idea of what manufacturers produce the cameras you need. Panasonic and Hikvision cameras are also quite good for a more reasonable price than Axis, but I'd agree with the above poster that they are the gold standard in IP CCTV.

[chaostheory]

Same background. I don’t have experience with Geovision, but Axis is rock solid with a great API. (Axis also led the ONVIF standard, but it’s no where near as nice as their own API which makes sense. Cisco’s dead standard was much better but DOA due to mismanagement)

I think they’re still the industry leader too. The catch is that they are expensive and they’re mainly enterprise solutions

[jsiepkes]

Can second the Axis recommendation. I've never had problems with them. You can also easily use them with other systems or without Internet.