[bourneavent]

The problem is you end up paying More for what you want because what you want doesn't align with everyone else. These cars are massed produced, so anything deviating from the popular norm ends up becoming custom and costing more, even if the custom design is less complex then the popular design.

Given that everyone else wants those bells and whistles, ironically you get more by paying less which means logically more bells and whistles is the better deal.

A logical person would in turn want the cars with "too much stuff". That is unless you're willing to pay more for less stuff.

[lamontcg]

> Given that everyone else wants those bells and whistles

I'd argue that almost nobody else wants all those bells and whistles, but most people want a couple of them. So you wind up with all of them, because people will walk away from a vehicle that doesn't have what they want more than walk away from a vehicle that has too many things they don't.

[shepherdjerred]

I like/use all of the features that the parent listed. There are _some_ dumb features, on my car, but most of them I quite like and are a large part of why I bought my car and not a cheaper model/trim.

[aitchnyu]

Mirrors the justification for big software: most people use 20% of the features, but that 20% is different for different people.

[lamontcg]

Yeah, the analogy to something like Microsoft Office or whatever is pretty straightforwards.

[vel0city]

Almost nobody wants power windows?

[vkou]

Or Bluetooth. Or not having to deal with a clutch. Or a window defroster. Or a rear-window wiper. Or cruise control...

I could go on. :)

[lamontcg]

My 2000 Ranger has just about all of those. Those clearly aren't the features that are causing QC issues in 2023 models.

[vkou]

No, but I'm sure they were causing QC issues in earlier models, before auto manufacturers figured them out.

[brewdad]

And manufacturers have gotten really good at spreading the most popular features among multiple upgrade packages. You want heated seats and blind-spot monitoring? That's going to be two separate packages that include tons of features you don't really want.

There might be an option to only add the two specific features but that means a custom order that will take months to arrive and probably won't end up saving you much money anyway.

[ktosobcy]

Nah... it's like with dumb SUVs - do you think that everyone wants them? Or the demad was created because it was better for the makers to make them (with relatively lower increase in cost they can charge more for the end product)? Tied with and thanks to Corporate Average Fuel Economy…

In my circle I don't know anyone wanting "infotainmant" - just a regular car to which I can connect my mobile hassle-free without dumb TV screen smack in the middle of the car...

Same goes for mobile phones - most of the people I know want to have regular sized phones (~5-5,5") but now... it's easier to smack ~7" screen to the roof-tile (that they call "phone") and sell at a premium...

[RajT88]

> do you think that everyone wants them?

SUV's are very popular among women - 43% of buyers. The industry research says that women feel safer driving them - the size makes them feel more protected, and the ride height lets them see the road much better. (Lest it go unsaid, women are on average less tall than men)

These are the reasons my wife cites preferring her Honda Pilot to her previous cars.

[asfgioandfionio]

I'm sure nothing I have to say is news, but it bears repeating that the common excuses for driving an SUV are either selfish or irrational.

The only advantage SUVs offer in safety is that they're likely to flatten the other car in a crash. Aside from size, the characteristics of an SUV make safety worse—they handle badly, tend to roll, and their design is unsafe to pedestrians and cyclists—so buying an SUV makes the roads as a whole less safe. People buy SUVs to avoid being killed by SUVs. It's a negative-sum arms race.

SUVs have atrocious visibility, and this has its cost in blood. They are so high off the ground that it's impossible to see what is near to the vehicle. Thousands of children are injured every year from drivers not seeing them over the hood. Hundreds are killed. This kind of incident has a name: the frontover.

SUVs are a major cause of poor visibility. The need to see over other cars mainly exists because cars are so stupidly tall. Buying an SUV to see over other SUVs is another negative-sum arms race.

[JimtheCoder]

When I'm driving on the road, I'm totally cool with being selfish.

Driving is statistically one of the most dangerous things we do in life, and someone else being drunk/high/distracted/overly tired can end your life, or the life of a loved one, in an instant.

I don't feel bad driving a larger vehicle than other people. I will prioritize my safety.

[mym1990]

The problem is that a good chunk of those drunk/high/distracted/overly tired are in the same type of vehicle, and cause disproportionate damage to those who do not or cannot afford a similar sized tank. Your point is a valid one, and I think it is more of a reflection of failure on the end of car companies and legislation...

[martin8412]

As I recall, the car driven by the highest percentage of drunk drivers caught is the RAM 1500.

[flagrant_taco]

Wouldn't the failure there be with the drunk/high/dusts/tired driver? Car companies are in the business of selling whatever makes shareholders the most money, and you can't legislature away bad decisions.

[asfgioandfionio]

I understand being afraid of a car crash. I can understand doing the wrong thing out of fear. Driving an SUV is wrong, but hardly an unforgivable sin.

But I don't think you can be let off that easy. You seem to have come up with some way to technically admit you are in the wrong without really confronting it. What is "totally cool" supposed to mean? Does being "totally cool" with something mean it is moral, or does it just mean you don't feel angry about it? Why would you defend a decision based on whether or not it makes you "feel bad"? These words are weaselly. They dismiss the moral element of your actions without really addressing it.

If you're in the right, prove it. If you're in the wrong, admit it.

[GMoromisato]

That's not how it works. You can't prove morality the way you can prove math. Not unless everyone involved accepts an infallible point of reference, like a book or a pope--and even then there are differences in interpretation.

All moral questions, like, "is it moral to drive an SUV?", are variants of the Trolley Problem. Whichever choice you make ends up hurting some people and helping some others. But different people have different moral axioms about how to calculate the balance of that equation.

For example, I could probably save 5 people right now by sacrificing myself and giving away my organs. The fact that I don't means that I value my own life more than those of 5 strangers.

In the same way, driving an SUV to reduce one's own risk is not surprising.

Your own morality may lead you to different choices. That's OK. My whole point is that there is no "correct" morality.

You can try to convince others to adopt your morality (which we call "proselytizing"); you can say that some beliefs are unpopular in this society (and thus demonized); you can even look down on people who don't share your morality (we all know people like that). But you can't say that they are objectively wrong. That's not how morality works.

[inconceivable]

it makes me happy that every time i get into my truck, someone like you gets upset.

[kofejnik]

Don’t fall off your high horse

[acidioxide]

That attitude is the exact reason roads in the U.S. are much less safe. Cars are oversized, heavy and completely lethal for any pedestrians or cyclists. It's just a very dangerous trend that will cause more people to die.

[bluecalm]

Idk why you're being downvoted. It's well documented and obvious fact that SUVs and tracks are lethal to pedestrians and cyclists because of their hostile low visibility design.

By choosing to drive those in populated areas you're signalling a total disregard for lives of others.

[cmcaleer]

Personally I rather die than kill a child, and SUVs are far worse in that regard. Despite making up 15% of accidents in this[1] study, they represent 25% of fatal accidents. A child is 8 times more likely to die if struck by an SUV according to the same study. Empirically, SUV front blind spots are crazy and if you have a young child ask them to stand in front of your car with measuring tape while you’re in it. Very easy to imagine pulling out without seeing them and crushing them to death. The problem is even worse if you have a short partner. I felt blind when I drove my dad’s.

Even if we go for the selfish perspective, rollover rates for SUVs are intrinsically higher, and it looks like the Hilux in particular hasn’t bothered fixing this design flaw in 9 years[2]. And that additional braking distance can be the difference between a massive headache from rear ending, or worse.

Driving defensively will increase your odds of survival per mile far more than any additional metal will.

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00224...

[2] https://youtu.be/xoHbn8-ROiQ

[orwin]

And also, only 5% of all accidents are two rolling cars collisions, and a not small part of that are parking collision.

The average number of death per km was decreasing until covid in Europe and countries that did not buy into the SUV trends, but started increasing in the US in the early 2010s and correlate with the percentage of SUVs.

[bluecalm]

That's we need regulation. We are slowly approaching "let's drive a tank" territory. SUVs make the world dangerous and scary for people outside of cars: pedestrians, cyclists, other small personal vehicles users.

It's very sad to see people being cool with that but I understand it's rational. You will likely not go to jail if you kill someone because of low visibility. The victim blaming culture will even try to convince you it's not your fault that you haven't seen a pedestrian or cyclist from the vehicle you have chosen to drive.

[dghlsakjg]

The Sherman tank is shorter front to back than the current F-150.

[AnIdiotOnTheNet]

> SUVs make the world dangerous and scary for people outside of cars: pedestrians, cyclists, other small personal vehicles users.

Unfortunately the way a lot of American culture works means that this is actually the desired outcome. Cars today are basically advertised on their pedestrian killing prowess and, unsurprisingly, have even been used as weapons of terror quite frequently recently.

[poulsbohemian]

>the common excuses for driving an SUV are either selfish or irrational.

I don’t know if you’d call my Subaru an SUV or not, but daily I’m transporting multiple kids, a cello, football gear, groceries, various things for work - there are lots of reasons why people need larger vehicles.

[carlmr]

Most SUVs don't have extra space inside though. You could transport the same in your average station wagon as in your average SUV, often even more.

[greedo]

I have a VW CC. Four door sedan with huge trunk space. I've driven cross country multiple times, hauled lumber in it, 30 bags of mulch, you name it. The idea that you need an SUV to carry a lot of stuff just doesn't match reality.

[asfgioandfionio]

A station wagon solves the same problems. People just think they're lame.

[pirate787]

The other major safety advantage of the SUV is in the single-car crash (hitting a tree, pole, etc). SUV weight provides a significant safety margin here. The single car crash is nearly 1/2 of all crashes and responsible for the majority of auto crash deaths!

So your statement about SUVs making the roads less safe is demonstrably false. SUVs are the safest class of vehicles on the road, and if everyone drove an SUV, there would be fewer auto crash deaths overall.

Also, the newest SUVs have lower rollover death rates than the newest cars.

In terms of pedestrians, we should implement policy changes like more sidewalks and elevated crossings, lower speed limits and traffic calming features in pedestrian areas, tougher distracted driving laws and enforcement, and pedestrian air bags on all vehicles.

[greedo]

How are you going to implement elevated crossings in a suburban neighborhood, where the soccer moms in their monster SUVs can't see squat, and routinely speed? Kids are crossing multiple places; we can barely get ADA type curb cuts at the crossings.

Oh, and "pedestrian airbags" only help you avoid hitting the windshield. On most trucks and SUVs you don't even make it that far. You're just squashed like roadkill on their grills.

[brewdad]

I think the elevated crossing is the type where the crosswalk is raised and forms an effective speed bump requiring drivers to slow regardless of whether a pedestrian is present or not.

Something like this: https://goo.gl/maps/dmivYV7AzrDVmtBN6

[dragonwriter]

> SUV's are very popular among women

Heavy marketing was done to make them popular, and once they reached a certain threshold, their size created an arms race, since they blocked visibility for everyone not also in an SUV.

[xyzelement]

Disagree on the take. Was a small car fan until family. Now SUV fan because it makes loading the kids in and hauling their stuff that much easier.

Could survive with a Toyota Corolla? Definitely. Does the Highlander make life better? Yes.

Weird that heavy marketing would finally penetrate my brain the same year we had our first kid.

[dragonwriter]

> Weird that heavy marketing would finally penetrate my brain the same year we had our first kid.

Nah, but that marketing, and the financial incentives which motivated it, and the arms race from a critical mass of larger vehicles affecting visibility because of it are why minivans and SUVs (the former popular first and then the latter later because of when each worked as a regulatory dodge) bevame the choice for those needs, which were once filled by station wagons.

I’m an SUV owner myself for very similar immediate reasons to the ones you cite. Nothing about that interferes with my ability to understand that the market context within which those preferences call for that result is a product of specific, well-documented interplay between regulation and profit-seeking business behavior over several decades.

[xyzelement]

You sound like you know what you are talking about but I am not following. As a consumer I had a choice of vehicle (I could have bought a sedan or a station wagon or a minivan) and I picked what I wanted.

[vel0city]

> Now SUV fan because it makes loading the kids in

You know what is even easier for loading kids in a vehicle? Sliding doors.

[twothamendment]

As uncool as they are, as a former minivan owner they are the most practical thing ever. From hauling kids to hitting home Depot for some DIY (with the rear seats removed), having two sliding doors and being able to swallow 4x8 sheets or a washing machine -they are hard to beat.

[xyzelement]

(person you are replying to)

I agree. I was "indifferent" between the Highlander and the Sienna which is its minivan counterpart.

The funny thing is for all the hate the SUVs get for being big and heavy, the Sienna is slightly bigger and heavier.

[acidioxide]

It is ironic because SUVs have much worse visibility, especially right in front / back of the car.

[yourusername]

All modern cars have terrible visibility due to improved crash standards (wider A and C pillars).

[fooker]

Honest question: do you actually drive a car on a regular basis?

I have only seen this claim made by people who don't.

[ktosobcy]

> and the ride height lets them see the road much better.

Ah... and then everyone will get a SUV with similar mentality and then we will get SUV-extra even higher and "sturdier" to feel even safer?

FFS... world is not hostile, riding in compact city-car is not harmful. At best it's the mentality that "everything outside wants to kill me" o_O Get a tank maybe?

[pers0n]

I use my suv as a cheap truck. I’ve hauled a lot of furniture and other stuff with the back seats down.

[kps]

I do the same with my Honda Fit. Desks, doors, 2×4s, bicycle, 44U rack… It's true I can't fit a whole sheet of plywood, but most SUVs have the same skinny-door problem.

[ktosobcy]

I've done the same with Hyundai i30cw (wagon/combi)... SUVs don't have more spece, it's mostly just an impression...

[lolinder]

> most of the people I know want to have regular sized phones (~5-5,5") but now... it's easier to smack ~7" screen to the roof-tile (that they call "phone") and sell at a premium...

This has to do with the power they're trying to cram into the phones. We've pretty much gotten transistors as small as we can, but manufacturers still need to sell new phones and the way they've done that for years is increase compute and camera power.

[ktosobcy]

AFAIR the CPU/APU size is quite small. What takes quite a lot of space is battery. And because things are less and less optimize we need more computing power which needs more juice. What's more - bigger screens require more power as well.

Why those big phones popular? Because CPU efficiency doesn't sell well but number do, so we have a race: more storage, more ram, more MP camera... and bigger screen. Those are the most visible and easiest to adjust things. And many people associate size with being "better"...

[brnaftr361]

Does everyone else want those bells and whistles or have we come into that impression through some misinterpretation? I don't know anybody that wants all that shit. For those who do, upon the misadventure whereupon they are informed of the costs of overcomplicating I suspect there is a large proportion of people who won't want it in short order. I also suspect a large contingent of people who buy into the marketing and upon facing reality, are silently disappointed. And finally people who are somehow insensitive to cost, and disappointment.

[Tagbert]

most people want a significant portion of those features but not everyone wants the same set of features. As a result all features as wanted by a significant portion of the customers.

[greedo]

This is why there are so many white cars being made and delivered to dealerships in the US. With production still extremely constrained, manufacturers are just limiting what colorways they ship. They know anything new will sell since the lots are so empty, and buyers will just take whatever comes in the latest shipment. Having been new car shopping (and ended up buying used), I'm amazed at how much the car buying process has changed for new cars. You used to be able to order a color and trimline, with factory options without any issues. Now dealers laugh at you and say "Here's what the factory MIGHT send us in the next 6 months. Want to put down a deposit?"

The only thing I like about this change is that there seems to be far less high pressure sales going on.

[enigma20]

Not completely. Adaptive cruise control is becoming more common. Some Toyota's have it in all versions for some models. Mercedes A class you have to pay additionally for the basic models.