[prodent]

I would describe my personal experience in Zurich (and having lived in Berlin before) a bit differently.

Everyone loves whining about finding a place to rent in both places, but in Berlin it's about finding anything at all whereas in Zurich it's usually about finding something cheap and ideally in a desirable Kreis 3 or Kreis 4 neighborhood. Yes it's competitive, but you will find something with realistic expectations + budget.

NB: I don't earn a big tech salary either. If you land a Google/Meta/IBM/Disney/adjacent job, the (rental) housing market should not give you any headaches.

[ChuckNorris89]

Indeed. Which is worst, cities like Zurich and London where housing is very expensive but is available especially with a skilled job, or Berlin where housing is not too expensive, but almost non available to newcomers even on skilled jobs?

[expertentipp]

Which is worse chlamydia or syphilis?

> Berlin where housing is not too expensive, but almost non available to newcomers even on skilled jobs?

It's not available to long term residents either. In Berlin one has to compile and update monthly the application portfolio. Good luck having a landlord who'll issue debt free certificate more often than once a year. Think will get away without debt free certificate? Someone else will have it, sorry.

[prodent]

Finding an expensive apartment vs. not finding an apartment at all, really?

Say you are single, have some experience and get low-balled into a CHF 100k contract. Not counting 13th salary this translates to CHF 7.7k per month gross / CHF 6k net (before health insurance). I.e. at up to 1/3 of your monthly net you can spend up to 2k per month on an apartment. There are plenty of those to choose from inside Zurich city, even if some might be small for the price or have other drawbacks. You can find cheaper/bigger/nicer easily by expanding your search radius to the (extremely well-connected) suburbs.

[expertentipp]

> spend up to 2k per month on an apartment

Only if you're a relentless hunter. Otherwise it looks more like >2.5k CHF monthly. 400-500 CHF monthly on health insurance, 500 CHF monthly for random tickets, fees, fines, and other "disciplinary measures". Suddenly you find yourself being poor in Switzerland. Being poor among rich hurts multiplied.

[ChuckNorris89]

>Being poor among rich hurts multiplied.

Depends. Sure, it hurts your ego being "poor" in a super rich country, but that has the advantages of being safe everywhere, not being stabbed for wearing a nice watch, having access to the best medical care in the world, a reliable insurance and justice system for when things go wrong, clean air and drinking/bathing water, a high trust society where you're not afraid of being scammed everywhere or leaving your door open at night, not afraid that anyone will shoot you in your school, etc.

Some people would rather be dirt poor in Zurich, than filthy rich in Zimbabwe.

[expertentipp]

Once you pay 200 EUR/CHF for kitchen sink piping or 500 EUR/CHF for locksmith you quickly lose track was is a scam and what isn't.

[ChuckNorris89]

>Which is worse chlamydia or syphilis?

In life you often have to choose the least worst option for you out of two bad ones if you want to survive. It's rare to have your cake and eat it too, especially when it comes to housing in desirable metro areas and you not being wealthy. Beggars can't be choosers.

Granted, nobody put a gun to your head and said you must live in Zurich, London, Dublin, Berlin, or any other city with a housing shortage, it's your own voluntary decision to do that, but doing so you must be mindful of the compromises and sacrifices such a choice requires.

[expertentipp]

> Beggars can't be choosers.

I heard this in Germany a lot in various circumstances while seeing on my monthly payslips deductions totalling well over 40%.

> nobody put a gun to your head and said you must live in Zurich, London, Dublin, Berlin

I didn't force myself to that bloody miserable country either, but got qualified job and was granted relocation there. At which point I'm not a beggar anymore and can start posing even a smallest demand?

[ChuckNorris89]

>I heard this in Germany a lot in various circumstances while seeing on my monthly payslips deductions totalling over 40%.

That's the situation with social welfare states. They're not the USA. Everyone contributes as much as they can while receiving benefits per their needs. It's a social contract where people, for better or for worse, give up their individual opportunities for wealth generation, for the sake of collective wealth and welfare safety nets. Germany is not the place to move to, if you want to make wealth and pay as little taxes as possible.

>I didn't force myself to that bloody miserable country either, but got qualified job and was granted relocation there.

You could have gotten a qualified job in any other country, nobody dragged you into forced labor to Germany kicking and screaming I assume. Once you saw the situation you could have packed up and moved.

> At which point I'm not a beggar anymore and can start posing even a smallest demand?

You are free to make as many demands as you want, most likely nobody in Germany will care. If you want change, the best way is to vote with your feet and move to a country that's already built on your beliefs (tax heavens). Trying to change a country, as na individual, is like trying to move the planet.

[expertentipp]

> They're not the USA

The third bomb, a classic, bringing up comparisons with the USA. Listen, I'm EU citizen relocating within EEA and I don't care about your US fetish or complex. I turned around and moved away indeed. Now Germany will be more preoccupied in vetting boat immigrants. I wish they'll find enough qualified people ready to give up their individual opportunities for wealth generation, while repeatedly being moved back at the end of the queue to the benefits they need! Sounds like a lovely deal.