[carbonguy]

After reading this, I'm also reminded of (among other things) one of the points that Paul Graham made in "Lies We Tell Kids"[1]:

> You can't distinguish your group by doing things that are rational, and believing things that are true. If you want to set yourself apart from other people, you have to do things that are arbitrary, and believe things that are false.

"Stupidity" seems so strongly associated with a motivation to identify with a particular group, in almost exactly the sense that I understand the old Sinclair quote about what a man will and won't understand when his salary is involved, that I wonder now if "stupidity" as a phenomenon is JUST social signalling to demonstrate group association. Or does it has aspects beyond social conformity?

[1]: http://www.paulgraham.com/lies.html

[jonhohle]

There are some areas (including this one) where pg’s stream of consciousness thoughts are just that, and shouldn’t be taken as much more. Raising kids in suburbia is no more lying to a kid then sending them to school instead of off to work in a mine. There are entire rural cultures that have no exposure to modern conveniences or vices and haven’t for hundreds of years. They are not living a lie.

That said, I’d recommend not lying to your children to the best of your ability. For us that means certain American traditions aren’t celebrated in our house (Santa, tooth fairy, etc.). That also means sometimes having tricky conversations regarding propaganda from “trustworthy” sources as they learn to understand more about the world.

Having age-appropriate conversations about subjects isn’t hard and doesn’t require lying. It does require having some idea of a child’s developmental level and reference to the subject at hand. You wouldn’t tell a 3-year old that smoking causes emphysema, but telling them that it could make you sick is true.

I also think this is especially true for religious families. Ultimately that is a decision for individuals to make. Parents can teach their kids to the best of their abilities, but kids will have to take that and choose their own way. (Comments about how religions are lies are unnecessary and unwelcome.)

Obviously, no one person can have a completely accurate view of the world and all subject areas, and that’s important to teach kids as well. “I don’t know” or “let’s learn more about that” or even “here’s what I think annd here’s what some other people think, what do you think?” are perfectly acceptable answers at any age. We’re all going to be biased in certain areas. As kids get older, I think letting them know the foundation of that bias (cultural, socio-economical, educational, etc.) may help reasoning from different perspectives.

[afpx]

How do you deal with the social tension of telling your kids the truth about Santa, etc.? My wife convinced me that if we didn't conform, then all other parents in the area would dislike us.

Interestingly enough, when a classmate's dad told my 1st grade daughter about the (Christian) god, she got home and asked me why people believe in false things like that. But, she still continued to believe in Santa and the tooth fairy as well as her imaginary friends, etc. I think that maybe she knows they also don't exist, but she's enjoying the fantasy and experience.

[bombcar]

Kids are really dumb and really smart at the same time.

And they know when you’re lying, eventually. Especially when you tell them something that isn’t something you believe.

But you often don’t have to lie to explain something that’s too complicated or not necessary for them to know, as a simple explanation is not a lie, even if it’s not completely true.

[stephen_g]

Yes, it’s not hard to use “it’s a bit like X” or it’s “kind of like Y” when giving a simplified explanation or using an analogy. Even young kids can understand that. And I’ve never understood why people would make something up if they don’t know something - in fact, it’s a good learning opportunity in two ways - first, it’s good to show you’re not embarrassed or ashamed by not knowing something, and secondly it’s a good exercise to encourage the child to try and think of ideas together of what might be the explanation.

(That said, if you are good at switching demeanour to make it obvious to them that you're not serious, kids do often enjoy the absurd and ridiculous, so it can be fun to 'lie' to kids in that way by offering increasingly absurd explanations. But care must be taken to ensure they know you're not actually trying to mislead them!)

[celtoid]

I was reminded of Sinclair too. Conformity is certainly likely but I think it goes even deeper than that. If one identifies their own material survival with any particular group, system, nation, tribe, etc, it creates an irrationality that short circuits logic and reason. It appears as stupidity to those who don't identify their survival with those groups, systems, etc.

[111111IIIIIII]

> I wonder now if "stupidity" as a phenomenon is JUST social signalling to demonstrate group association...

I considered myself stupid when I came to this realization years ago. I recall thinking "why didn't my parents teach me how to be stupid to fit in?" Well, better late than never? The realization had some pretty significant effects on my life. It has enabled me to sympathize with people on a whole new level. It has brought me much closer to my family and made me better in all of my personal relationships, but at the same time it has made me feel so much more alone than I ever felt before.