[JohnDotAwesome]

As an RV-driver, I try my best to use the pull outs when I can. There are a few complications, though.

First is the visibility of these pull-outs is often very poor. You'll be driving through long winding roads and then all of the sudden the pull-out appears. In an RV, you can't just slam on the breaks and swerve into the pullout, ESPECIALLY if you're going downhill.

Second, often times (in the USA at least), these pull-outs have rough terrain going in an and out of them. There will be a little bump or uneven ground that most vehicles wouldn't mind hitting every now and then, but in my rig, that causes the whole thing to sway back and forth (Class-C built on a Mercedes Sprinter). I REALLY need to upgrade the suspension.

Third is time. Since I'm slower than everyone else, people tend to pile up behind me pretty quickly. Pulling into the pull-out, coming to a complete stop, waiting for everyone to pass, then getting back up to speed takes a long time. If I did this every time there was a car behind me, it would take forever. So, I tend to wait until there's more than a few cars behind me before pulling off.

Fourth is my wife. She says I have "overly-considerate disorder" and I need to make our safety #1 and stop caring about other people so damn much.

[prawn]

Just wanted to confirm those first three points. I keep a 25' converted bus in California for when we fly to the US for holidays. I really dislike holding people up, so will turn out whenever possible, but...

There isn't always advance signage, so you often see them at the last second and don't have time to check the quality of the approach, check if the person behind you has enough warning, etc.

They're always far poorer quality than the road itself, so you're aggressively decelerating a heavy vehicle in usually mountainous conditions, approaching a 4"+ drop into ragged pavement or gravel. I've hit some of those spots at speed and it's felt like the vehicle was going to fall apart.

And yes, often you're going slowly because you've just let a few cars past and reentered the road, just for another person to drive up behind you and start the whole game again.

It's very very rare to find signed turnouts that are good and long enough that it's trivial to pull off the road at a reasonable speed, let people through, and then continue on without just creating more problems.

I remember turnouts in NW Idaho or closer to Spokane maybe where the signage suggested you were meant to use the shoulders to let cars pass, but they were really narrow and I wasn't sure how exactly they were meant to be used? Anyone familiar with that area? If it's not wide enough to get fully out of the lane, wouldn't the passing car just overtake using the opposite lane anyway?

[kortilla]

The act of slowing down and pulling to the shoulder is a clear indicator that another car can pass you without having to go super fast like a normal overtake.

It takes far less oncoming traffic distance to pass someone going 20 in the shoulder than 50 in the regular lane.

You could achieve the same effect going 20 in the lane if you could clearly signal you intended to stay slow so the other person could pass.

[prawn]

Are you referencing that Idaho scenario? This generally assumes the shoulder is long enough, that the car behind you can see it and realise that's what's happening, that there is visibility, etc. From memory, in that Idaho (?) case while the visibility was good and it was generally a straight road, the shoulder was full of debris and unmaintained bushes. Also the shoulder is often a puncture risk.

Here in Australia, the road trains will often signal when it's safe for you to overtake them - they're seated higher with better visibility, have far better lights for night driving, etc. But I always hear that their employers/industry discourage them from doing this, I assume out of fear of liability.

I've driven x0k miles in the US and tried signalling like this when I can tell someone desperately wants to overtake me ("go now, it's clear ahead"), but almost no one understands the intention.

IMO, most RV/truck/etc drivers dislike holding up traffic as much as the traffic dislikes being held up!

[yencabulator]

> if you could clearly signal you intended to stay slow

That is achieved very easily by driving a 31,000 lbs vehicle.

[fsckboy]

> says I have "overly-considerate disorder" and I need to make our safety #1 and stop caring about other people so damn much

I can't speak about your (w|l)ife, but in my (w|l)ife, people who say this are the people who personally enjoy taking advantage of my nature, and my "overly considerate behavior" is only pointed out when someone else seems to be getting benefit at the expense of my (w|l)ife; i.e it's a statement of selfishness.

[mym1990]

I've read this 6 times and still can't make any sense of it.

[jkingsman]

Can't tell if you're joking or not, but this commenter (fsckboy) is using programming/regex-like syntax to write "wife/life" as "(w|l)ife", indicating that, although the parent commenter (JohnDotAwesome) is referring directly to their wife, the commenter (fsckboy) has found it to be true throughout their life AND coming directly from their wife.

In other words, both fsckboy's wife and misc. people in their life tend to only point out that fsckboy is being "overly considerate" when it appears that fsckboy is letting someone benefit from their considerate nature. The implication is that fsckboy considers the behavior as being kind and/or safe, while their wife/companions think of it as being taken advantage of.

The broad concept of this exchange concerns where the line is between being considerate and being taken advantage of, and how others might be incentivized to view that one way or the other.

[tsimionescu]

It's more than that - fsckboy also believes that the people who point this out to them are doing so because they normally enjoy being the only ones taking advantage of fsckboy, and are incensed when others get to take advantage too (in their view).

[SiempreViernes]

And so a corollary is that fsckboy thinks their wife is (regularly?) taking advantage of fsckboy, which doesn't sound like they have a great relationship. But maybe this is not actually what fsckboy meant to say, and so we are back to not understanding what they mean.

[mym1990]

This was a whole therapy session in like 5 comments.

[s1artibartfast]

It confusing because one part of the wife/life pair makes no grammatical or logical sense, as shown below.

>I can't speak about your (wife), but in my (wife), people who say this are the people who personally enjoy taking advantage of my nature, and my "overly considerate behavior" is only pointed out when someone else seems to be getting benefit at the expense of my (wife); i.e it's a statement of selfishness.

err, what?

[dredmorbius]

Rewrite as "in [the case of] my (w|l)ife", which would then cover both expansions, "wife" and "life".

[mym1990]

Yes, this explanation did the trick! I feel like I generally stay overly considerate in order to avoid confrontation, or because there is a chance it makes the other person feel good, which I guess makes me feel good. Things like letting anyone in front of me in traffic, etc...

[wesleytodd]

Hey John!! Wes here, sitting in the shade of my RV right now. Funny to hear the last line, because mine says the same thing about when I am driving. And when she is driving she literally tell me "fuck em, I will drive how I want" lol.

[e40]

> "fuck em, I will drive how I want"

Says the same thing to people in the US (and elsewhere??) that drive in the freeway's fast lane holding everyone up for MILES. That is one of the most annoying things I face regularly on the road.

[wesleytodd]

I hate people who do this, nd it is probably why my wife has such a reaction, it is more about me pestering her too much than her actually wanting to ride in the fast lane. Backseat driving is a bad habit of mine.

But one thing I have learned by driving 50k miles these past few years is that you never actually get there meaningfully faster. So really, everyone is better off if they just slow down and hit that cruise control.

[idopmstuff]

> But one thing I have learned by driving 50k miles these past few years is that you never actually get there meaningfully faster. So really, everyone is better off if they just slow down and hit that cruise control.

Depends what you're driving on. If it's a freeway where you're going to hit stretches of traffic anyway or roads where there's stop signs and lights, sure. When I'm on the 5 going from SF to SD, though, yeah, the clown who's doing 60 in the left lane for miles while holding me up is very much increasing the amount of time I have to spend on the road.

[wombatpm]

Chicago to Minneapolis is approximately 420 miles. At 60mph that’s a 7 hr drive. At 70mph it’s 6 hrs. At 80 it’s 5 hrs 15 min.

When I was making that drive every other week I hated the slow pokes. There are only some many times you can look forward to a stop in Tomah, WI

[billforsternz]

I don't know, as a non-American, Tomah Wisconsin sound exactly like the kind of place you could get a nice grilled cheese or a decent hamburger at a diner unchanged since the 1950s, with a bottomless cup of coffee and a nice slice of apple pie from a friendly middle aged waitress called Flo or similar who would no doubt call you hon. I'd look forward to stopping there.

[b112]

Quebec to Palo Alto, I've done the drive in 3 days, and 5, usually 4. All due to weather, construction, and slow pokes or not.

[rhino369]

The restaurants in Mauston, WI seem cleaner/better. That’s where I always stopped between Chicago and Hayward.

[bigyikes]

Yeah. Going a bit faster on your morning commute won’t change much. But it does legitimately add up on longer drives.

Not to mention, waiting behind a needlessly slow driver is just annoying. Mental costs are real, especially when operating heavy machinery.

[DangitBobby]

It adds up over a week of morning commute as well.

[Fatnino]

Speaking of the 5...

What's the deal with a truck going 54 in the right lane being overtaken by another truck going 55 in the left lane? Does he not see him? Slow down, let him in, and the rest of us can get on with our day.

[jacquesm]

In Germany they call that 'Elefantenrennen' (Elephant Races).

[mint2]

Isn’t the speed limit 70 on I5? Those going 65 are usually trucks passing other trucks.

[idopmstuff]

Yep, but it just takes one moron :/

[NikolaNovak]

I agree with being measured and predictable; I take advanced driving and safety class every couple of years as a refresher and safety is a massive priority for me. And I'm a big fan of cruise control. But going fast in the fast lane IS measured and predictable :-)

As well, 20%, or say a difference between going 10km over vs 10km under on a 5hr trip, is an hour and that's not nothing :-/

[WalterBright]

Being predictable is the best way to avoid an accident.

[jkhdigital]

Amen. This is why I use my turn signal when changing lanes every. single. time. Over 20 years and counting without an accident.

[GeorgeTirebiter]

Is this an (accidental?) +1 for robo-cars?

[imoverclocked]

Measured and predictable: definitely. Having different speeds in different lanes also helps traffic flow better.

Also, people seem to really bunch up in some regions. Having a gap that is several car lengths in front of you actually helps traffic flow smoother (and thus faster.) I feel like aggressive/impatient drivers who cut people off create this culture where I live and then ultimately end up slowing everyone (including themselves) down.

[Fatnino]

Your last paragraph is just objectively wrong.

People here are commenting how it's wrong for long drives, so I'll chip in with how it's wrong for a short drive too.

South bay to Sacramento in a Chevy bolt. I can drive 55mph and do the round trip on one full battery charge. Or I can drive 75mph and save so much time that it more than makes up for the necessary mid trip charge up in Davis on the return.

[rubicon33]

I wish everyone would sit the fuck down, and do the math on driving faster. 10 mph, even 20mph hour more isn't going to get you where you're going much faster. Maybe you get there 5 min sooner. Was that worth being a complete dick and a danger to everyone else? Fuck off.

[dang]

"Please don't fulminate."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[xyzzyz]

10-20mph won’t make much of a difference for a commute, but when you’re driving on roads with loads of RVs, it means that you’re probably doing bigger distances, and with those, 10-20 mph will absolutely make a difference.

For example, when you’re driving more than 6 hours in a day, which is not uncommon for Americans, especially ones living west of Mississippi, extra 10 mph of average speed means you’re getting to your destination 1+ hour faster, which most definitely is a significant difference.

[VBprogrammer]

Averaging 10-20mph faster is very difficult on anything but the least congested roads. We often set the cruise control to 75-80mph but find that the average for a journey is closer to 58-60mph (not including stops).

It's a heck of a lot easier to make up half an hour by making quicker stops than it is to make it up on the road IMHO.

[iudqnolq]

Do you mean it's not uncommon for Americans to drive all day to go camping on memorial day weekend or something, or do you mean we're driving 3 hour each way commutes? Because very very few Americans have that kind of commute: https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publicatio...

[Gordonjcp]

> when you’re driving more than 6 hours in a day, which is not uncommon for Americans

Most Americans do less than 5000 miles per year. You totter to the shops and back over distances that people in other countries would just walk.

You can spot American tourists in Scotland, because they can't cope with everything being 200 miles apart when they drive at a maximum of 15mph.

[brian-armstrong]

Being able to pass allows me to create separation from other vehicles which means I can establish a good following distance. When selfish assholes block the passing lane, it creates a big moving traffic blockage that will turn into a multiple car pile up if anything goes wrong. The ideal highway traffic density is less dense, not more dense.

[thorncorona]

You’re right. Fuck the speed limit, I drive however I want. Speed limit 60? I drive 60 in the left lane where everyone else drives 80. The safest.

Better yet, since my car is old and I don’t maintain it, I will drive 50 on the highway in the middle lane so everyone has to drive around me.

Who gives a shit about other people anyways. Them driving faster than me is a problem but not the other way around.

[dang]

Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[Dalewyn]

Safest speed is maintaining the same speed as the traffic around you.

Deliberately driving at a faster or slower speed than traffic for no good reason is the definition of unsafe driving. Please surrender your driver's license before you kill someone with that attitude.

[gcoakes]

What do you mean by "holding everyone up?" I'm constantly self conscious about this.

I refuse to drive more than 5mph above the speed limit after a particular incident a few years back. I drive quite a bit on a 3 lane 75mph highway. Consistently, I'll end up behind someone who doesn't know what speed they want to go in the middle lane, something between 65mph and 75mph. They're mostly 18 wheelers. I'll usually move over to the passing lane and go between 75mph and 80mph until I pass them.

Inevitably, there's some asshole that wants to go 90mph that appears out of the ether as soon as I start passing. They always want to be less than a second behind me, and never seem to understand that I want to keep at least 3s between me and the car in front. I always imagine they're saying the same thing you're saying in their heads.

[cassac]

The US version (varies by state) of the fast lane is garbage which is why nobody follows it. If you want a passing lane then you need a non passing lane and I don’t think US drivers are willing to make that concession.

[porkbeer]

Typically, you stay out of the left lane unless passing in the US. It's that easy. In many states, the person failing to yeild to faster traffic is ticketed, but not all.

[greedo]

But funny, hardly anyone ever gets ticketed for tailgating, which is far more dangerous.

[nradov]

It's easy in theory. In practice on many busy freeways such as I-5 through California the right lane is often clogged with heavy trucks for miles at a stretch, and the road surface is in terrible condition due to wear from those trucks. All the car drivers, even the slow ones, then hang out in the left lane so as not to get caught behind the trucks. I'm not defending this poor driving etiquette but the road conditions make it inevitable. The only real solution would be to add a third lane.

[Dalewyn]

>All the car drivers, even the slow ones, then hang out in the left lane so as not to get caught behind the trucks.

Most of them go back to the right/slow lane when they're done passing any trucks and other slow traffic. Even on the I-5 it's not like the right/slow lane is an unbroken line of trucks from Mexico to Canada, you know.

[cassac]

But you can still pass in the right lane. So a slow driver in the left lane has someone riding their tail and are also getting passed in the right so they can’t even change to the slow lanes anymore. Add in left exits, moving over for vehicles on the shoulder, and speed limits that adjust based on road conditions and you have the perfect storm of it only being enforced in the worst cases.

[siftrics]

> So a slow driver in the left lane has someone riding their tail and are also getting passed in the right so they can’t even change to the slow lanes anymore.

Then why the f*ck are they in the left lane?!

[brightlancer]

> Says the same thing to people in the US (and elsewhere??) that drive in the freeway's fast lane holding everyone up for MILES.

If it's the fastlane, then there are other lanes.

I suspect the person is doing the speed limit, maybe a bit over, in the fast lane -- and you're just and ASSHOLE.

[wolrah]

> If it's the fastlane, then there are other lanes.

In these scenarios it's usually two lanes in each direction, and the slow lane is filled with a line of semi trucks that have hard limiters set somewhere in the 65 MPH range and can not go faster no matter what, even if the highway limit is 70 or higher. Those truck drivers will do anything they can to maintain their max speed.

Some utter jackass then decides they don't want to be behind the trucks, but they also don't want to go faster than the trucks, and we end up with a line of annoyed traffic led by one dipshit.

> I suspect the person is doing the speed limit, maybe a bit over, in the fast lane -- and you're just and ASSHOLE.

Your position assumes the posted speed limit is set reasonably. Here's a hint: It's usually not on highways. I mean ffs there are eight lane divided highways with 55 MPH posted limits. You can't possibly defend that nonsense.

Most controlled-access highways the speed limits should start at 75 and as proven by the Germans beyond any doubt ∞ is a perfectly reasonable limit for rural stretches with good visibility and quality pavement.

Beyond all that, you are not the cops. It is not your job to enforce posted speed limits. If you are intentionally choosing to get in the way of a line of traffic when you have a reasonable option to not do that, YOU are the asshole.

I just can't even contemplate the level of selfishness it would take to be in the passing lane, looking at a line of annoyed drivers behind you and open road in front, thinking "man all those people are assholes for wanting to get past ME".

[camgunz]

The last few times I've seen this happening (> 1 vehicles blocking anyone passing) behind me I've slowed down in the fast lane, let the "blocker" catch up to me, and then slowed down even more so the blocker has to also slow down, breaking the wall of cars and allowing people to switch into the passing lane to get by. I get a real kick out of it. Dunno how safe it is, but w/e.

[NikolaNovak]

Lol, my wife has an aunt that's famous for this. She'll go whatever speed she wants in whatever lane she wants on a major 4-6 lane hwy (401 in Toronto) and will righteously swerve her finger at people flashing their lights and honking behind her: "you can GO AROUND!".

(For record and clarification I do not condone that approach :)

[JohnDotAwesome]

New number, whodis

[paulirwin]

Definitely agree with the first and second points above. I absolutely will if I can see it with enough time to safely slow the RV, and the terrain doesn't look like I might blow a tire or damage the RV doing it. I'm usually less concerned about time when traveling in the RV. I try to do what I can to build up good karma with other drivers, but it's not always a good idea to pull off.

[nohankyou]

On the other side. someone with road rage isn't going to care about others so much either (you) and possibly risk their own life, and yours, just out of frustration.

Being excessively considerate of others on the road is safer from my experience.

[wffurr]

Are those terribly paved slow vehicle lanes a California thing? In New England they are the exact same quality as the other lane. I have never once had to navigate a drop to let faster traffic pass.

[mint2]

That sounds like a passing lane, we have those too. Those are usually nice although occasionally they are only long enough for 1-2 cars to safely pass. It doesn’t help that slow vehicles seem to often speed up for passing lanes.

But a pull out is just that. It’s a pull out. They are typically very short such that one has to pull in and fully stop. They are often found are on narrow roads in windy coastal, mountain or river canyons where putting in a passing lane is not feasible.

[wffurr]

I don't know why anyone would expect a vehicle to pull off onto one of those just to let people pass.... So weird. I'd expect that to only be for someone who actually wants to stop and take a rest or something.

[mint2]

Oh I dunno maybe because it’s courteous and not selfish, or maybe it could be because posted signage often informs drivers that it’s Mandatory for slower vehicles to pull over if x number of cars are following.

Yeah why would people expect anyone to do that?

[wffurr]

An RV driving 50 doesn’t seem like a big problem to drive behind.

I guess I expect people to be reasonable, but comments in HN should have taught me better by now.

[jiveturkey]

I personally believe non-use of pullouts is more about the sorry state of the other drivers, not the RV drivers. (Assuming reasonable road conditions, which as you note, is not always the case.)

> coming to a complete stop

You're not meant to come to a stop. That absolutely kills what momentum you do have. It's exceptionally difficult to start a heavy vehicle from a stop. You're meant to pull out, maybe slow down a little, then pull back in, cars be damned. Some cars will pass, maybe not all. The new lead set of cars will get by at the next pullout, and so on in incremental fashion.

But what happens in practice is that the first or 2nd idiot behind you does not prepare in advance and then does not race like mad when you go into the pullout, thereby allowing as many following cars as possible to also make the pass. Even if that first car did execute it correctly, the 2nd car likely does not. Then the 2nd or maybe 3rd car is "in the breach" when the pullout lane ends, blocking your (RV) re-entry and forcing you to stop. Then you're doubly fooked. You have to start from a complete stop and you're at the very end of the pullout lane, with no speedup zone at all.

... this is why we can't have nice things ...

My daily commute involves a 2 lane highway (ie, 1 lane each direction) with a pullout for slow moving vehicles. Semi trucks and other heavy construction type vehicles use this road a lot, as it's the only viable route. They do almost always use the pullout, but they pull back in at the end without regard for anyone in the traffic lane. They have to -- they are even worse than any RV on getting started from a stop again. So I see this crap driving from the auto drivers almost every day. If I happen to be the first car waiting behind a truck, I race on past and then it's always the case that only 1 other car in a long line also make it past, when 6-7 should be making it. I also frequently witness the slow passing fool have to slam his brakes as the truck re-enters the lane.

I don't fault any RV for not using the pullout lanes.

[yencabulator]

> You're not meant to come to a stop. That absolutely kills what momentum you do have. It's exceptionally difficult to start a heavy vehicle from a stop. You're meant to pull out, maybe slow down a little, then pull back in, cars be damned.

The "cars be damned" part would be a collision, with the RV at fault. No thanks.

And the pullouts are not long enough to keep rolling, you have to come to a stop to have a chance to pick up speed again when there's a gap, otherwise you've just rolled to the end of the pullout and now you're sitting still with no room to accelerate before pulling into traffic.

[jiveturkey]

I've not seen that kind of pullout. Well of course I have but they aren't designed for a slow moving vehicle to let traffic pass. They are just for safely stopping. Like fishing something out of your back seat, taking a quick break, sometimes there's a vista there, that kind of thing.

The turnouts designed for slow moving vehicles to let others pass, at least to my experience these are almost always signed far enough in advance (I'm sure there's a vehicle code mandating distance of signage) and they are at least ten or tens of car lengths long.

I think you are asking too much for any vehicle to pull out into one of those tinier kind of little turnouts for the sake of normal kind of driving/passing activity.

> The "cars be damned" part would be a collision, with the RV at fault. No thanks.

Agreed and this is why i would never use them were I driving an RV, and I don't blame others for not doing it. I'm just noting that I see the big trucks do this all the time. I'd estimate once a month I end up behind slow car panic stopping when he realizes the truck isn't having it.

[yencabulator]

I've driven just about everywhere west of the Dakotas. You're talking about the kind that's sort of like a new lane opening on the right, going parallel with the road for a good while, right? Those are incredibly rare, I think mostly in one region of California, like maybe the Yosemite area.

Ignoring those clearly-marked, friendly, and predictable pullouts, practically everything else is a total crapshoot you really don't know what it's going to be like until you've already driven past it. With a 38-foot 31,000 lbs class A, we made it the passenger's job to call out whether a pullout was safe or not, because the driver just didn't have enough time to notice it. Often we did manage to pull out of traffic for a moment and let 3-10 cars pass, but sometimes it just wasn't feasible.