[joecot]

As an aside, when I see people beat themselves up for not being able to face their struggles with the stoic reflection of Marcus Aurelius, I want to remind them that unlike them, Mr Aurelius was extremely wealthy, one of the most powerful men in the world, and absolutely blasted on opium for most of his day.

[SanderNL]

That sounds like it would complicate life, not make it easier? His wealth and power is predicated on him being the leader of the friggin’ Roman Empire. I don’t see that as an easy life.

Being an emperor and even trying to do a good job is damn near impossible in my eyes. Lot of respect for that. My tiny life sometimes overwhelms me already.

[latexr]

> My tiny life sometimes overwhelms me already.

Because you (presumably) have to deal with every tiny thing in your life. Even having to buy and cook food can feel overwhelming when you’re busy trying to accomplish other things.

Marcus Aurelius had slaves. He was the emperor. He did not have to worry about the multitude of minutiae required just to continue to exist.

When it seems to you rich people are able to achieve more, remember that’s because they need to do less. If you did not have to think about basic necessities, you too could do more of what you dream about.

[SanderNL]

No, because I am less capable. It’s sometimes simple like that.

He wasn’t “rich people” like some Russian oligarch. He had shit to do and deep moral obligations. Millions of lives depended on it. Things of vast strategic importance stretching both thousands of miles and many decades.

Slaves don’t manage your long term ambitions and juggle your various mental and moral anguishes. They keep your house clean and provide you with food, sure. But to be honest, as a rich Westerner, I’m not too far off that.

He didn’t dream about standing knees deep in foreign horse shit managing the nitty gritty of brutal wars for the continued existence of an empire that looked solely at you.

All this could be handled with great nonchalance and incompetency which would have made his life relatively easy. But he decided to try and do a good job, now that’s something to take serious.

I get that “rich people” have some leverage, but this is another thing altogether.

[JohnFen]

> No, because I am less capable

You know yourself better than I, obviously, but if you're assuming that because your path differs from theirs, I think you should have some doubt that the difference is because you are less capable. It may be that you have different values.

[SanderNL]

While I believe in equal value of human life, I don't think we are in any way equal in abilities both inborn and acquired. People like Aurelius are rare and dismissing him and his accomplishments as "rich people have it easy" doesn't do justice to both his skills and rather significant sacrifices. More importantly, it absolves us from taking a look at ourselves and the state of our lives.

He seems to have resisted, or rather, his particular ethical framework provided the power to resist two very big and very real problems:

"Mo money mo problems" (~Socrates)

"Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely" (~Shania Twain)

[JohnFen]

> I don't think we are in any way equal in abilities both inborn and acquired.

Well, sure, I didn't say anything that disagrees with that at all. But you phrased it in a more general sense of being less capable.

Perhaps I read it wrong, but that didn't sound like you were saying "I'm less capable at X", rather that you were saying you were less capable in general. That was the sentiment I was pushing back on.

And I wasn't even saying that assessment was wrong. I was just saying that it's the sort of sentiment that can easily come from incorrectly underestimating one's self and so deserves a deeper look.

[perilunar]

> Shania Twain

Lol. Actually Lord Acton

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dalberg-Acton%2C_1st_Baro...

[darkerside]

Managing people is a lot more complicated than you seem to realize

[Zealotux]

When Marcus Aurelius' status gets mentioned as a counterpoint to his philosophy, I like to remind people of Epictetus, which, born a slave, arguably lived the very opposite life of Aurelius and still ended up with a similar outlook on life.

[jmort253]

I didn't know about the opium. He mentioned not getting addicted to things in the book. I bet he was talking about all of the things he had done wrong in his life. Do what I say not what I do.

[joecot]

Romans didn't consider opium an addiction as much as a medicine. Same as many of the drugs we now consider illicit. Marcus Aurelius was taking opium every day for "stomach issues" (krohns or similar perhaps?) and "nerves".

[renewiltord]

Interesting. Like how people are absolutely juiced to the gills on caffeine these days, riding a stimulant Shai Hulud across the sands of time.

[kaba0]

Caffeine though really is a jackpot for humanity, it has realistically speaking no negative side effects.

Even serious physical symptoms from withdrawal are basically just a week of headaches and other minor things.

[bayindirh]

> it has realistically speaking no negative side effects.

Realistically speaking, that's not true. I did some voluntary experiments on myself during Ph.D. corrections process and, besides resistance, when coupled with a lot of hard work for a prolonged time, it's certainly very unhealthy for the body.

If you regulate your consumption and pair it with good sleep, it's a boon. Otherwise, it's a slow-killing drug.

[kaba0]

From most studies I saw, moderate consumption (<=~3 cups of coffee) has no long term negative health effect.

Could you expand on what you found and what were the specifics?

[smeagull]

It doesn't come with many positives. It steals energy from later in the day for now. Potentially leaving you an over stimulated wreck. And the level at which you notice is higher than it should be for you to dial in the optimum amount.

Much like nicotine, it fools the user into thinking the cessation of withdrawal is part of the positive effect, rather than just removing a negative you wouldn't have if not for caffeine dependence.

[Dalewyn]

Coffee's great, but sometimes I wish I could route the increased number of calls from Mother Nature to a voice machine.

[foobiekr]

Disrupted sleep, lack of REM sleep, poor attentiveness, …

[kaba0]

That is very dependent on the consumed quantity, and the time of consumption.

And is nothing compared to the next most frequently used drugs, alcohol and nicotine, hell it has plenty of positive effects.

So my initial statement I believe still stands that humanity could hardly happen upon another substance that they could use in such a huge amounts with minimal negatives.

[kpennell]

FWIW, I kept reading it affects deep sleep, not rem.

[gryn]

only if it has an effect on you, I tried it many times and the only effect it seems to have on me is the bitter taste and heart palpitations if I drink too much of it.

if I'm tired or sleepy and drink it, I'm still tired/sleepy but with a higher blood pressure/heart rate.

sometimes I wonder if it's just people that oversell the effect of coffee.

[BigJ1211]

You might be like me and apparently 1/5th of the human population doesn't really feel the effects of caffeine. Basically goes in and out of your system without 'proper processing'. Been years since I read about it, so things might have become more clear.

I can drink coffee/red bull all day and it'll do very little. Can drink just before going to bed and sleep just fine.

I'll try to find the study on this again if you're interested.

[PcChip]

Some coffees with high caffeine have this effect on me as well. I find that different brands of coffees have very different effects on me, I can even get a good coffee feeling from some decafs. I'm convinced it's the other alkaloids in there besides caffeine that I like

[Levitz]

Many people have a sleep problem disguised as a caffeine problem. Also many people have a caffeine problem disguised as a sleep problem.

Taken now and then, sure, probably worth it. The part in which a lot of people's brains are seemingly unable to wake up without taking caffeine? Probably not good.

[kaba0]

> The part in which a lot of people's brains are seemingly unable to wake up without taking caffeine

That’s very likely just placebo/power of habits, similarly to many people can’t go to sleep without brushing their teeth.

[Tepix]

I don't have a sleep problem, i have a Qwitzatteracht problem. This golf game is simply addictive.

[dizhn]

Is it known what the dosage would have been? I read elsewhere before that though they drank wine all the time, its alcohol content was very low compared to today.

[monissiddiqui]

Sword of Damocles is a bitch and a half. Access to infinite pleasure is ineffective in the face of paranoia and misery since they don't cancel eachother out i.e they are not collinear vectors in mind-space.

Having access to Aurelius' cleaned up mind chatter is a blessing.