[DrThunder]

Eh I get what you're saying but I don't think most people who switch to vaping actually stop quit nicotine all together, they just continue vaping with often higher levels of nicotine. I guess they have the advantage of getting rid of second-hand smoke and the permeating smell of cigarettes.

I think a similar thing happens with "diet" "sugar-free" products. Almost all of the people who use these products neglect every other aspect of their health thinking they're really going to tackle obesity by swapping out processed sugar for sweeteners.

Anecdotally, I've never seen someone using copious amounts of these sweeteners look healthy. They continue on being obese and out of shape. I think if your goal is to be healthy then your mind set has got to change and using an option like artificial sweeteners is just a "have your cake and eat it too" position that won't result in making you healthier.

[mike10921]

Nicotine itself is not more harmful than coffee or similar products. It is the smoking that is the main health risk. Assuming that vaping is less harmful, that would make it a win if one was to choose between smoking and vaping. Of course, doing neither is the absolute best choice.

[klik99]

Slight clarification: Nicotine at normal doses is not more harmful than coffee - though at high volumes it is pretty bad. In the context of this conversation though what you said is totally true.

[toolz]

I think we have to be more nuanced with health than this. Vaping can be the absolute best choice if it helps you maintain a healthy weight and/or a healthy career which keeps your health insurance activated.

There are plenty of people who swear by chemicals like nicotine and caffeine that help them achieve indirect benefits and I can't imagine they're all wrong.

[opan]

Gwern has some good writing on Nicotine if anyone's curious. He basically used it in small doses as a nootropic.

https://gwern.net/nicotine

[DrThunder]

Excuse me? That's irrevocably false. Where did you pull that misinformation from? The big vape industry?

https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-is-nicotine-5075412

" There are many health risks and side effects associated with using nicotine. Some of the health risks include:

    Nicotine contributes to the development of emphysema—a type of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease— in smokers.
    It’s potentially carcinogenic. Chronic nicotine use is linked to lung, gastrointestinal, pancreatic, and breast cancer.
    Nicotine use is associated with peptic ulcer disease (PUD) and gastroesophageal reflux disease (GERD). 
    Nicotine use increases the risk of hypertension and cardiovascular diseases.
    Nicotine use during pregnancy increases the likelihood of complications and adverse outcomes like miscarriages and stillbirth.9
    Children exposed to nicotine in the womb are more predisposed to health problems throughout their lifetimes. These health problems affect their endocrine, reproductive, neurologic, respiratory, and cardiovascular systems.9
    Nicotine use can cause cardiac arrhythmia—a cardiovascular condition characterized by an irregular heartbeat.10"

[klik99]

We're talking about nicotine, not smoking. There is no evidence that nicotine is carcinogenic.

https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/causes-of-canc...

> Nicotine is the chemical that makes cigarettes addictive. But it is not responsible for the harmful effects of smoking, and nicotine does not cause cancer. People have safely used nicotine replacement therapy (NRT) to stop smoking for many years. Nicotine replacement therapy is prescribed by doctors or is available from pharmacies.

The risks for hypertension, etc is true for nicotine, because it's a stimulant, so same risks exist for coffee. There is very little conclusive evidence that nicotine (not talking about smoking or vaping) has any health effects that aren't also caused by coffee/stimulants.

The best thing you can say about vaping is that it's very understudied and long term effects are unknown, and likely has some long term effects that are bad for you.

Smokeless nicotine (swedish snus-variety) is considered very safe.

The problem is smoking and nicotine have been so intertwined for so long that when they say "Nicotine causes x" most of the time what they mean is "Smoking causes x" and maybe also "Vaping could potentially cause x"

[DrThunder]

False. I provided you the evidence. Here's more, keep lying if it makes you feel better.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4553893/ "In several in vitro experiments, it has been found that nicotine in concentrations as low as 1 μM decreased the anti-proliferative and pro-apoptotic effects exerted by chemotherapeutics on several different malignant cell lines"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/ "There is decreased immune response and it also poses ill impacts on the reproductive health. It affects the cell proliferation, oxidative stress, apoptosis, DNA mutation by various mechanisms which leads to cancer."

Are you a big vaper or something and this is upsetting to you or something? I can't see any other reason for you to react with outright lies.

[klik99]

Your previous comment didn't include any evidence, but these are pretty interesting. The second one is more damning, but again the majority of studies were on smokers. I'll update my statement and say there is little evidence that nicotine by itself is carcinogenic. As the second article says "The IARC monograph has not included nicotine as a carcinogen." so it's still not conclusive. The strongest thing I see in the second article is that nicotine can help promote existing tumors, that's concerning.

But the way science works is by having lots of viewpoints and research - there are also plenty of papers on how nicotine is not carcinogenic.

"Smokers commonly misperceive that nicotine is a major carcinogen" - https://thorax.bmj.com/content/66/4/353#ref-2

"The literature to February 2019 suggests that there is no increased cardiovascular risk of nicotine exposure in consumers who have no underlying cardiovascular pathology. There is scientific consensus that nicotine is not a direct or complete carcinogen, however, it remains to be established whether it plays some role in human cancer propagation and metastasis. " - https://f1000research.com/articles/8-1586 (This is what I saw in the second article - looks like there is a chance that nicotine can promote existing cancer)

"The devastating link between tobacco products and human cancers results from a powerful alliance of two factors — nicotine and carcinogens. Without either one of these, tobacco would be just another commodity, instead of being the single greatest cause of death due to preventable cancer. Nicotine is addictive and toxic, but it is not carcinogenic. This addiction, however, causes people to use tobacco products continually, and these products contain many carcinogens." - https://www.nature.com/articles/nrc1190

I am not a vaper, I do use patches and gum. I believe that damning nicotine prevents the development of replacements for smoking which is incredibly dangerous. I don't vape because research on that is in really early stages, and there's a good chance there might be something bad in the long term, though there is no strong evidence that it is worst than other NRT, except that levels of NNAL are higher (see the first paper you posted).

Edit To clarify that you didn't provide evidence in your first post - you linked to https://www.verywellhealth.com/what-is-nicotine-5075412 which has citations, but the comments about nicotine being carcinogenic linked to studies that studied smoking, not NRT or non-smoke based nicotine.

[Veen]

These are all health risks associated with smoking, not with nicotine itself. If you click through to the pages those risks link to, you'll see they are talking about smoking, not nicotine. There are some risks from nicotine (high blood pressure and faster heart rate), but it does not cause emphysema or cancer.

[fatfingerd]

Do we really know what portion of this isn't just correlation between nicotine and the fact that it has to be administered which usually involves smoke, fiberglass irritation, etc?

I think the main problem with nicotine is its addictiveness and the fact that that will lead you to accept risks in administration via cigarettes, toxic fluid vapors, chew with fiberglass, etc.

[toolz]

Nicotine isn't bad. There are plenty of ways people use nicotine in just as benign a way as many people use caffeine.

You've missed the far-and-above most beneficial effect of switching to vaping, which is getting rid of inhaling the huge category of carcinogens that come with inhaling partially burned solid fuel.

Cigarettes don't give you cancer because of nicotine. They give you cancer because of partially burned solid fuel.

[doxeddaily]

How many fat people have you seen lose weight and keep it off forever? Not very damn many that's for sure.

[nashashmi]

how many fat people were at some time before thin? getting fat is the end result of getting old.

[ndsipa_pomu]

Most of the really old people that I see are quite thin - is that due to the long-term health effects of being overweight meaning that they don't survive as long, or is it that extreme old age (>80) also involves a reduction in appetite?

[dmix]

> they just continue vaping with often higher levels of nicotine

Source?

[ryeights]

I can’t speak to OP’s claim about former smokers. However as a younger person who knows many younger never-smoker vape users, I can attest that they all consume vastly more nicotine than would ever be practical with cigarettes.

Vape pods are highly concentrated and you can use them anywhere, any time. No more need to bother with sneaking out of the house or taking smoke breaks.

[DrThunder]

Here's a start - feel free to go off on your own and learn.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-preventi...

"What’s worse, says Blaha, many e-cigarette users get even more nicotine than they would from a combustible tobacco product: Users can buy extra-strength cartridges, which have a higher concentration of nicotine, or increase the e-cigarette’s voltage to get a greater hit of the substance."