[mahmud]

I don't think it would work.

People's sense of "self" can't be taken away, it is something we develop the moment we realize our thoughts are private and others can't give us what we want unless we ask for it. Children learn to lie very early; even when their language skills aren't sufficient, they learn to fake disappointment & force themselves to cry to get what they want.

IMO, even under prolonged captivity & complete dominance, humans only submit to subjugation, but they never lose their sense of Self.

Higher-level indoctrination is even less plausible. Nearly all religious groups & cults have the human at their center. People have to willfully submit to hypnosis.

Going back to the development of self, I think another thing that makes it possible is the position of our eyes. We can only see in < 180 degrees, our eyes open & shut, and we happen to fall asleep. If the human subject was allowed free movement, the captor would want us to respond to commands .. we would need to be called .. differentiated amongst ourselves. Human Unit 1 is different from Human Unit 2. The captor calls the subject, and the subject chooses to respond, somehow. In the presence of punishment, the subject decides to carry out assigned duties to avoid punishment, or to gain reward: self-interest. Self.

[fwonkas]

> IMO, even under prolonged captivity & complete dominance, humans only submit to subjugation, but they never lose their sense of Self.

Actually, it can be done. Depersonalization is relatively common: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization

[aidenn0]

I have totally had that after 2 all-nighters in a row.

[mahmud]

Excellent, thank you for the pointer.

However, do depersonalized people feel like they're no longer individuals, or do they feel like they no longer have control?

[dedward]

they feel that they are somewhat detached from their physical selves... sort of like an observer, watchingyourself go through theday. its an odd sensation.

on another not to parent posters..... whether or not our sense of self is ongoing and inbreakable is certainly not decided or anywhere near scientific fact(yeah yeah, science only disproves, you know what i mean)...

all we can say is that we feel as if we have this continuity..... and that it apprars as if others feel the same way. memory is not like tape.... your sense of timing and events changes constantly, and what you perceive to be your unbroken, continuous sense of self and its memories is, in fact, almost universally incorrect on all kindsof things as it changes over time.... butyou (and i) will feel everything is in order. it is likely constantly teconstructed ad a survival trait.

Also look at surgical anaesthesia.... some theories on this, and subjectively i can see it, while you are under, you arent asleep...... you, your sense of self is gone, totally shut down. no dreams. no sense of how much time had passed when you wake........ not like a regular sleep whenyou at least havesome idea. it always feels like instant teleportation from the surgical suite to the recovery room, even if many hours have passed. then there arethepeople who just never come back.

we are far away from understnding consciousness... which is cool. weve batelyscratched the surface. were just nowrealizing the brain has far more plasticity than we thought a few years ago.... its still a hugemystery.

now take general anaesthesia...... during surgeries i can recall, i was simply gone. that time was simply time i didnt exist.

[mahmud]

Interesting comments. Like the typos too :-)

[paraschopra]

I don't think it is as much about Self in objective sense of word as much about Self in subjective sense of word. Even if you know you exist, it doesn't prove anything else apart from the fact that you exist. Now you could be made of flesh or silicon, or you could be just an idea existing in someone else's mind.