[Exmoor]

Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but if Reddit doesn't backtrack what's the endgame here? I've seen multiple subs indicate they intend to fully shutdown if the API changes continue, but for the popular ones what's to stop Reddit from just appointing new mods and starting the sub back up?

[throwaway202351]

I feel like some of the "smaller" communities can't really have their mods replaced without some work. Programming subreddits need mods with the right programming background to make executive decisions like banning the next NFT-like scheme, for example, which a generic person going through posts and deciding if it's against the TOS couldn't do.

[cjs_ac]

Exactly. You can't lead a community if you're not a proper member of that community, especially on Reddit, which still retains some of its reputation as a place where knowledgeable people are to be found.

[ohgodplsno]

/r/Programming's head mod is spez, second in command is another Reddit employee.

Needless to say, they've done fuck all and the sub is very often a dump.

[lightedman]

I expect nothing less out of the person that was head moderator for r/jailbait

[giantrobot]

What tools will those new moderators use? The mods of any decent size subreddit have to use third party tools because the first party ones are apparently garbage.

I think a better question is what's Reddit's endgame? Mods of huge subreddits will just capitulate and use Reddit's crappy tools to do their unpaid work? Somehow those subreddits won't be flooded with spam and trolls? People will stick around to look at ads when every other post on /r/awwww is gore because the mods won't be able to keep up? Everyone will just download the complete shit that is the official Reddit app?

[TheAnachronism]

Agreed, a large part of the platform will just go to shit, as no good moderation tools are available to the mods (regardless if you replace them or not).

Reddit's value lies in what its users provide and post about. This also goes for that data that Reddit (publicly) wants to protect from AI companies. With their change, not only do they screw over its users and communities, but also mess up any valuable future conversation data.

[gmerc]

So like Twitter and FB. Maybe it’s time.

[mrktf]

That surreal to me too, mostly because there there are no offered alternative such as forum or even clone. (i mean open reddark and just list)

I think from reddit perspective that could be considered as jackpot: 48 hours downtime it just 0.6% ( 100-((363/365)*100)) over year, if it is keep going - update TOS (something like - huge subreddits cannot be converted to private and etc.) and just replace mods...

As for endgame I think slowly users will start leaving, but it could take years.

[malka]

> Just replace mods

yeah. "Just".

[wvenable]

If the mods get replaced, that's just another thing for everyone to complain about. Reddit relies on the community to do "community things" but if they stop doing those things then what do they have?

[2pEXgD0fZ5cF]

That is exactly what many (including the people working at Reddit [1]) just don't seem to understand.

Reddit is, first and foremost, content driven. The content itself comes entirely from the communities. To be more precise: from a very small group of people inside those communities.

Most reddit users just read, include users that only occasionaly comment in threads and you get a bucket that represents like what, 4/5 of the whole userbase?

This means that you do not have to make many people angry to render the site useless for the overwhelming majority of people that go to the site. Reddit rests upon the labor of a small number of people: Users that post and/or create useful content and moderators.

Now a site like youtube is very similar but has one [2] very significant difference: The people producing the content have a monetary incentive, making it very unlikely that a majority of them will stop or move away. Reddit, as a company, however brings almost nothing to the table, it's just that it used to be frictionless and now everyone happens to be there. And they are working hard to kill the "frictionless" part.

[1]: The recent AMA with spez was a nice demonstration of how out of touch they are with reddit users

[2]: Actually it's two, hosting video content on a large scale is actually hard

[prox]

This is why Spez is such a tool imo. He tries to be a Zuckerberg or something. Get his IPO moment.

Not one moment does he reflect if this is the course to take. I understand why, the railroad of any tech site is to sell out, make those billions. Get some money.

Reddit’s DNA seems different enough, like you say, it is far more about community building. A model like wikipedia, to see it as an utility, would be far more in line with what it is.

Spez if I had to guess probably is just flipping tired of it all and wants to cash in asap.

[stale2002]

Hey, reddit mod of a top subreddit here. I can give some insight into what mods are thinking.

This current 'movement' is extremely organic and decentralized. A couple power mods started rallying the troops, and the movement went viral among mods over the course of about 2 weeks. There is very little direct coordination between subreddit mods, and it is mostly people deciding on the fly to make big decisions.

TLDR, nobody is really thinking much about the concerns that you are pointing out.

Its certainly something that people have thought about, very minimally, but the current counterargument to the idea of reddit just replacing mods is twofold.

argument 1: "They can't replace all of us!"

IE, subs are all run by an army of volunteer mods and mods think that they have a lot of bargaining power here.

argument 2: "I don't care. Let all of reddit burn to the ground!"

Quite frankly, a lot of people on reddit have gotten very worked up about this situation, and do not care about the consequences. If they get replaced, or reddit drops the hammer, they are fine with the consequences and will just leave.

But, the most important thing to note is absence of the following argument.

Argument 3 that doesn't exist: "We have a coordinated plan, back plan, and backup backup plans as for what to do about this, in communication with all the other mods"

That would be the smart way to do this, but unfortunately for the mods involved in it, this isn't what is happening. For better or for worse this is a viral outrage movement with nobody in charge.

[davidgerard]

I was surprised and pleased that our users were wholeheartedly supportive of the shutdown. Still not sure if we're back in two days or will leave it closed longer.

(small sub, 18.5k, but needs active moderation not to go to shit - our topic is in the news a lot lately. thankfully the reddit tools are up to the task at our scale, but bigger would be bad)

the disconcerting thing is that Twitter and Discord are simultaneously going to shit, because enshittification is what happens when suddenly borrowing carries an interest rate and VCs get squeezed.

[jeltz]

I think this is because many people, including me, was already very tired of Reddit's shitty changes. If Reddit had had a good track record and this was their first misguided change I doubt most users would have supported this.

[Balgair]

From the outside, this seems very much like a classic labor dispute. Management (reddit) and labor (mods) are at odds over what they see as the future of the corporation. As such, some form of mediation needs to occur between both sides for work to continue.

Again, as an outsider, I see a few problems here:

1) You're not being paid at all, so you're not really 'labor' per se.

2) You're not unionized, so you don't have a spokesperson and can't coordinate your desires.

3) Reddit can't pay you to begin with, as they have basically no money for each mod, and isn't willing to negotiate before the IPO

4) Reddit seems perfectly fine and able to just get new mods and turn the subreddits back on, spam be damned.

5) Reddit also seems like they will just let the wildfire of outrage pass (really spitballing here) and most users will likely not even remember this by the 4th of July.

I think someone with actual union experience could really help you all. If you managed to get something of a 'standard' going, with payment in stocks or some other token monetary amount, then I'd say that would be a huge boon to the internet in general and a great roadmap for other companies. A real big opportunity is hiding in this and I wish you all the best in grabbing it.

[upon_drumhead]

Nothing other then the sheer amount of subreddits and hours of commitment by the new mods

[legulere]

Reddit is heavily reliant on unpaid labour by moderators. Where is reddit going to find new qualified replacement mods on such a short notice?

[sterlind]

Some communities may move wholesale to one of the Reddit clones. For instance, a clone of r/traa is rapidly taking off on one of them. For communities with strong cohesion like traa, people will move as a group, and obviously any attempt by Reddit to install new mods would meet with disaster.

[kgwxd]

See Freenode as an example for what comes next.

[az226]

This can kill an entire sub like FreeFolk. It imploded and never survived the fallout.

[olalonde]

> appointing new mods and starting the sub back up

That's what I'd do. Most subreddit mods are easily replaceable. And in many subreddits, the people who are mods aren't necessarily the best suited for the job. They often got there through luck, bootlicking, etc. It isn't a meritocracy.

[Gigachad]

For any one sub, sure. But there is no way reddit can replace the majority of mods.

Most companies have to pay for moderators, reddit has gotten them for free for a long time. If they piss off all those free mods, it’s gonna cost them an unimaginable amount of money.

[bosse]

While it's true that some subreddit mods might not be the most qualified for the job, and may be in it for the ego boost or as a perception of entitlement, it's also important to remember that being a mod is not exactly a glamorous position - for many it has been a thankless janitorial role that involved dealing with spam and abuse on a continuous basis, with a very limited toolset available from Reddit to do this. The third party apps were the ones to introduce features that made the mod tasks much easier to handle efficiently. The official Reddit app got these capabilities much later.

If Reddit wants to force open protesting subreddits and find a way to recruit new mods to more than 7000 subreddits, then I assume this is within their right, it's their site after all.

[treis]

Most of the major subs are modded by people who get paid by advertisers and other promoters to astroturf support for whatever. It's not hard to replace them.

[jeltz]

You base that on exactly what? If anything this wide spread shutdown indicates that that is not the case.

[Eisenstein]

The major subs are not the reason reddit is so popular.

[davidgerard]

spoken like someone who has clearly never done mod work

[olalonde]

I think you misinterpreted my comment. What I was attempting to convey is that the mods on Reddit are easily replaceable, not because good mods are easy to replace, but because Reddit mods are generally not good mods. I wouldn't make the same comment about HN mods for example, or of the few subs that do have good mods (but from my experience, they are a minority).