[veave]

The way I see it as an European is that basically everything China does, the US does or has done, and to me they are both foreign powers. If I don't have qualms about using instagram why should I have qualms about using tiktok.

[fisf]

Yes,they are both foreign powers. But one is a undemocratic dictatorship.

[nforgerit]

How is that more than a superficial label if western democracies behave like big hypocrites?

- Starting dubious wars against foreign nations? We've had Afghanistan and Iraq.

- Spying on and criminalizing citizens? We're having Five Eyes and possibly much more than we don't know about.

- Treating whistleblowers against our standards of human rights? We're having Manning, Snowden and Assange. And probably many more we haven't heard about.

I'm not repeating some whataboutisms trying to relativize, e.g., the horrible attack of Russia against Ukraine or the Chinese Social Scoring system. I'm just asking about the meaning of "democracy" in the Western world is, if our gov'ts are sh*tting on our values any time they need.

[maldev]

Can you explain how Snowden or Assange are mistreated against our standards of human rights? Snowden hasn't been in the US and is in Russia for years, and when he was in the US, he was never treated wrongly. And Assange hid out in an embassy to dodge charges. If you break the law, get people killed, push propaganda from Russia, you're going to have to face a Jury of your peers. Unlike China where you just get disappeared, we have a court system where you can get a trial by jury.

[Convolutional]

> face a Jury of your peers

Like the Arab nationalists being waterboarded in Guantanamo Bay?

Although some of them the US realized it picked up the wrong guy and released them.

Incidentally, Guaantanamo Bay is occupied by the US military against the wishes of Cuba.

[rurban]

But China is also an undemocratic dictatorship.

[squarefoot]

I share similar views, and certainly would be a lot more concerned if my government had access to all my personal data and communications, rather than the Chinese one, which very likely doesn't give a damn about who I am. Yes, every country has its share of dirty history to be ashamed of, but the difference with places like China, Russia and others is that in our "western" countries we can (still) as citizens criticize the powers without expecting to be detained, have the house raided, lose our jobs and whatnot. Things may change in the future in my country, especially after the new wave of neofascist crooks that went in power lately, but we're not yet at that point.

[ljlolel]

Or have qualms about both??

[doxeddaily]

Well for one thing the US has proven they are willing to come to your aid. You know, something called WW2 that you guys started. So maybe, I dunno, get a clue about history and who your allies are? It's kind of insulting to say that you see no difference to be honest. Next time maybe we won't show up when ya'll start shooting each other and doing genocide.