[1827163]

Makes you want to use powerline Ethernet for everything, which happens to stomp on the HF radio bands. Perfectly legal to install and use, a nice replacement for all those trailing cables.

Yes, civil disobedience is how these draconian rules get changed, assuming everyone does it. Notice ham antennas down the road? Then get some powerline Ethernet adapters, ensure they are fully regulatory approved for the country you are in.

And that is perfectly legal civil disobedience too, which is likely to cause utter hell for that amateur operator, who likely supports this draconian punishment for such a trivial matter.

[PhasmaFelis]

Some amateur radio operators are jerks, so you should go well out of your way to sabotage operators you've never met? As "civil disobedience"?

This is an absolutely insane take. I mean, this is like slashing every tire in your work parking lot because someone drove by your house with an obnoxiously loud muffler.

[1827163]

There's nothing illegal about installing powerline networking adapters. Doing that to protest the absolutely outrageous fines being dished out there. And that so many radio amateurs support this kind of punishment for relatively trivial behavior, that has caused no physical harm to anyone. It's like a sit in protest, to disrupt it, without breaking the law.

It's not hams being jerks that's the problem. It's that their threats have the backing of the law. They have many petty rules, which if you break you can find yourself in trouble. With fellow amateur radio operators being the ones notifying the authorities. That's what really riles me up. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20294483

This guy here is being fined $24,000 for what is essentially petty harassment, which is ridiculous.

[PhasmaFelis]

> There's nothing illegal about installing powerline networking adapters.

Nobody said there was.

> It's like a sit in protest, to disrupt it, without breaking the law.

Sit-ins work better if the subject is aware that a protest is happening and why, and also if the subject is the one who actually did the thing you're protesting.

Some ham operators did shitty things, and you've decided based on zero evidence that every single ham operator everywhere is equally responsible and deserves to be punished, by you. In sit-in terms, this is like you heard about a racist lunch counter in Mississippi, so you decided to strike a blow for justice by throwing a brick through the window of a bistro in New York.

What you're talking about isn't a protest. You're not raising awareness, you're not applying pressure to change behavior or change the law. You're just mad about something and you're venting it on a random bystander who reminds you of the guy you're mad at.

If you're unhappy about radio laws, there are ways to organize and fight to get them changed. This isn't one of them.

[1827163]

This is why. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NorLTsOVFeE

He wanted to use the Baofeng radios on license-free FRS frequencies and got so much shit for that. He very much sums up how I feel about it. As long as it's programmed for the correct frequencies, who cares?

It's not just some operators, it's a large part of the ham community that's bent on policing "intruders" like that. I don't really care what other people think about my actions here. We can all have different ways we protest this issue, as long as it's lawful.

I'm just hoping that there's a tiny chance that idea might spread. As one of the many ways of fighting back against these draconian measures, without breaking the law. And I'll continue to come up with more entirely legal ways of countering this.

While I don't personally think it's hazardous to health, some people do believe that having a multiple hundred watt transmitter in the neighborhood might have health effects, and it could be especially harmful to small children. Lots of people used to complain about smart meters, and those are only 1 Watt at most, which is tiny by comparison.

Or even better, refuse to participate in the ham community and find something else to do, as the guy in the YouTube video does.

[1827163]

I think maybe it shouldn't be legal to operate high power amateur stations in built up areas, due to health and safety concerns?

That there might be enough people out there, once they are aware of the very high power levels used by amateur radio operators, that might absolutely not want this going on, because they have children around, and they don't want these extreme power levels inside their homes.

These hams are so willing to police people potentially intruding on their bands, but that's there's a chance that their very high powered signals, which are intruding onto nearby homes, are putting peoples' children at risk. I think we don't really know the full risk of it is right now, that the debate's out on it?

And it's worse than 5G microwave signals, because those are dramatically attenuated by the walls of the home. Which is not the case for amateur radio, which uses much lower frequencies, especially HF.

In the UK they have already passed legislation regarding EMF safety for amateur radio stations.

https://www.icnirp.org/en/differences.html

[1827163]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrsAsnl6XGA

High power ham radio has also been found to interfere with medical equipment, such an insulin pumps, apparently a ham got shut down over this. Although it's somewhat the fault of the pump manufacturer there. Another potential reason to prohibit it.

Just have a look at the comments in the video, that says everything about the ham radio community. Not all of them of course, but there are so many individuals with that mentality.

The video shows him having an Ameritron AL-811H, which is an 800W linear amplifier. I'm not surprised at all it's affecting her insulin pump, with those power levels being emitted just 3 doors down.

By the way, it's really worth watching the ending of that video... My God.

And unrelated, this is how the amateur community reacts if you talk about running an unlicensed station, this is so common: https://old.reddit.com/r/shortwave/comments/gv7r64/stupid_qu...

" The FCC has an automatic fine of $19,000 for getting caught on a single occasion and upto $149,000 for repeated infractions "

[PhasmaFelis]

> It's not just some operators, it's a large part of the ham community that's bent on policing "intruders" like that.

I understand that your argument is "some hams are jerks, therefore all hams deserve to be punished." It's not the "some hams are jerks" part that I'm doubting, nor the intensity and unfairness of their jerkiness. It's the "therefore..." part. No amount of anecdotes proving the former is going to make the logic work in the latter.

And no amount of secret jamming is going to change any laws or influence anyone's attitudes. If you want to protest, stand up in public and protest. If you want to get petty revenge on a stranger for sharing a hobby with some obnoxious assholes, you can do that instead. But don't tell yourself that you're just like sit-in protestors. It's embarrassing.

[1827163]

I don't really care if it's embarrassing or not. As long as my actions are entirely legal, anything pretty much goes. Encouraging people to install regulatory approved powerline networking adapters is completely legal. As it's likely I'm not the only one outraged about this here, the idea to do that might spread. If that happens it won't be secret anymore.

And we have the right to freedom of speech, to get emotional, angry, and even irrational when we see outrageous punishments being dished out by the government, for people being persistently rude on the radio. Especially so when we hear of other people supporting such draconian punishment.

And even more so when large parts of the amateur radio community agree with these punishments and also behave like they are the radio police and have the right to threaten those who might break the rules. When I see other people threatened in that manner it really strikes a nerve with me, and I vent publicly on the forums in response, as I'm doing here.

And if I want to think it's like a sit in protest then it's my right to do so. Under human rights, freedom of conscience and freedom of thought. I might be wrong about thinking that way, but I have the right to be wrong, to be incorrect. As long as I don't break the law.

It's like sit in protesting climate change, or a particularly bad corporation who pollutes the environment, the blockades are going to cause a nuisance for other people not involved in it, but again these protests are legal. This is how change happens.

Many of these amateur radio stations might pose a health and safety hazard to nearby homes. Having thousand watt power levels in residential neighborhoods, while legal, might not be safe for people, especially children. And the amateur community in general turns a blind eye to that. So yet another reason for protesting. Actually, in that case I feel lobbying to get that prohibited might have a better chance of success.

And if it does become prohibited, we don't need to fine offenders $24,000, the FCC can get a warrant, and come in and seize their equipment instead, if they don't stop when requested.

[1827163]

Even better if some product came onto the market, that used wideband powerline communications for its functioning, and practically everyone's got one. I think some electric car chargers might do so in the future. That would not go down well with amateurs, at all! When everyone down the street would have, in effect, legal jammers.

MaxLinear have some nice ones, complete with datasheet, it also works in MIMO mode, not for just powerline but pretty much anywhere.

https://www.maxlinear.com/document/index?id=23257&languageid...

Update: I think solar inverters are causing big problems here already, so it's only a matter of time now as they become increasingly popular. So we can kiss those amateur radio enthusiasts and their utterly draconian punishments goodbye in the long term.

https://hfdxarc.com/technical-pages/how-to-reduce-electromag... https://www.pa9x.com/how-the-replacement-of-solar-panel-micr...

[1827163]

It's been like this already, for quite some time (!), at lest here in the UK, VDSL2 to thank for that: https://rsgb.org/main/technical/emc/vdsl-interference-report... So it's already being jammed, with the noise floor going up, although not to the point of being unusable.

[rolph]

i dont want to actually attack thier media, the cultural experience felt toxic, and the hobby felt needlessly constrained.

there is angst between commercial operators and ham radio; its seen as wasted bandwith that should be used to make money; every transgression is ammo in possible future decisions to de allocate ham spectrum.

it wasnt my idea of fun. know the rules and you can avoid attracting attention, from FCC or [foxhunters] looking for unlicensed operators breaking convention,rule,or law. there is that greyzone for consumer electronics to swing your elbows a little more.