[braza]

Personally I feel bad for all those folks that moderates/contributes in Reddit and at Stack Overflow.

Imagine pour hundreds of hours for the sake of enjoyment, sharing or nurturing a community and due to some market circumstances not having a saying in any decision.

To be honest, seeing those movements from those companies makes me feel that the future of open communities (but some how walled) it’s bleak.

[johnnyanmac]

This is at least the 3rd blackout being planned en masse, and while I hate being pessimistic: I don't think much will be done here if history serves. Most people will stay and be unaware, some (maybe many) contributors will leave, we will probably get one or two winds on some alternatives that then get overrun by unsavory folk that makes it unwelcoming to anyone who cares about their personal reputation, and the dust settles with not much change overall.

But yea, that's why I never did any real "passion work" up to this point, even if I've been interested. If I'm going out of my way for that, it has to at the bare minimum be portfolio work for a job, or to garner community reputation to leverage for a future project that is paid.

It's a cynical way to look at what should just be done for the sake of others. Some would call it "clout chasing" and they aren't entirely wrong (not entirely right either, but there's similarities). But you always gotta look out for yourself first. From my decades here, the Internet sure won't. Quite the contrary; it's extraordinary how quickly communities can turn on something if you brush it the wrong way.

[lubujackson]

Maybe this will just be it for Reddit. I know if the app I use (Reddit Is Fun) goes away, as it is planning to do, I won't use Reddit on my phone any more and by extension, I will rarely use it at all. No big drama or boycott from me. It is just another community circling the drain via planned obsolescence.

[that_guy_iain]

Honestly, I don't. There is a lot of talk of the price being unreasonable. Realistically, it's rather reasonable. The problem only comes in when these apps have failed to monetize subscriptions. In some cases, these apps are monetized by ads and therefore directly competing with Reddit for the ad buy. Seriously, I am meant to feel bad that someone who decided to directly compete with a company is now being charged money for the very thing that makes the app viable?

There is a lot of talk of these apps being forced to shutdown due to the overhead of $2.50 a user per month. That is an extremely low overhead so low that a $5 a month subscription solves the entire drama very quickly.

This isn't about Reddit being greedy. This is about Reddit users being too cheap to pay for something they want and used on a daily basis. There are free ways to use the site if you want to use an API that avoids monetizing then it seem fair you pay. This isn't like Twitter where apps charging $20-99 a month had trouble paying. This is apps charging $1.50 to very few users and relying on another company to foot the bill for their freemium model - while directly competing with them.

[gioo]

Remember that not all 3rd party clients are/were developed for-profit, there are plenty which are open-source, have no monetization or ads, and are gonna be hit by this change too.

>This isn't about Reddit being greedy.

This is Reddit being greedy. They are asking $2.50 a user per month, while the revenue they make from someone using the first party reddit app on average is just $0.12 per month. [0] Add this the restriction on NSFW content served from the API, and it's clear reddit is just straight up trying to kill 3rd party apps.

[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/apolloapp/comments/13ws4w3/had_a_ca...

[that_guy_iain]

> Remember that not all 3rd party clients are/were developed for-profit, there are plenty which are open-source, have no monetization or ads, and are gonna be hit by this change too.

People can use those open source tools on the free level that doesn't require the higher level of use.

> This is Reddit being greedy. They are asking $2.50 a user per month, while the revenue they make from someone using the first party reddit app on average is just $0.12 per month. [0] Add this the restriction on NSFW content served from the API, and it's clear reddit is just straight up trying to kill 3rd party apps.

$2.50 a user. You're mad they're trying to make money. Most businesses wouldn't survive if they only got $2.50 per user. Not only that realistically, the infrastucture probably costs about that to run. We're not talking some static website or simple infrastucture here. Seriously, it's pretty entitled to be mad at company is trying to generate $2.50 per user per month. Like really entitled.

It's really a poor way to look at it "Sorry but you've only been making $0.12 so trying to make $2.50 is far too much, how dare you try to generate money."

[gioo]

> People can use those open source tools on the free level that doesn't require the higher level of use.

Fair enough.

> You're mad they're trying to make money.

I'm not mad they're trying to make money, I absolutely understand that. But again, why do they want $2.50/user from a 3rd party client, while keeping the revenue from their first party app unchanged?

The excuse for API changes was fairness (3rd party client using the API for free while making a profit isn't fair), but charging this much just shows that they don't want 3rd party clients to compete in the first place. Which is also fine, if only they admitted it.

[that_guy_iain]

I believe the official excuse is they need the money to invest in the developer platform.

[add-sub-mul-div]

Reddit is a pretty terrible product and it's not cheap of people to decide that it only makes sense to use if free.

Ideally we all would have realized Twitter and Reddit aren't worth our time, but if it's facing that they're not worth our money that gets us to break our habit of settling for them as time wasters, that's cool too.

[johnnyanmac]

>if it's facing that they're not worth our money that gets us to break our habit of settling for them as time wasters, that's cool too.

Let's be honest: even if we agree it's a waste of time and it then becomes financially unviable; you just find another time waster. Tiktok, Instagram, Youtube, 4chan, etc. Heck, some would just go and watch porn. There's no end of sites (new and old) with oodles of user generated content to waste time on.

People aren't brainwashed and magically become productive when the brainwashing stops. Or you can interpret it less generously and say that they are so brainwashed that they will see other means if one of them stops.

[johnnyanmac]

>The problem only comes in when these apps have failed to monetize subscriptions.

1. I'm not entirely sure if that's allowed in the Reddit API TOS to begin with (before this change).

2. There's too many alternative ways to browse reddit to really make headway as a subscription app. Including Reddit's official app and simply opening up the mobile website (even if Reddit does everything in its power to ruin the website experience on mobile. They REALLY want you using the app). I don't mind and have paid for ad-free versions of several 3rd party apps, but that's a single small payment.

3. this brings up a much larger issue forums have been going through for decades; is it really "right" to continually charge or content that is mostly user generated? I don't think people mind a one time payment for a stable release of what is ultimately a nicely designed web viewer. But beyond that?

There's many reasons why no app dev has thought of this. Legally, logistically, and even ethically. Personally, I'd just feel weird asking people to pay me money every month when the overhead maintenance of my app (which I imagine is minimal. bug fixes and some small feature requests while MAYBE doing a bigger request every 6-12 months) isn't what's keeping them there, it's the ability to keep reading posts/comments submitted by users. How do I justify my price as a middleman unless I am delivery major releases every month or two?

>This is about Reddit users being too cheap to pay for something they want and used on a daily basis

I don't entirely disagree. But app/mobile has long since raced to the bottom, so that's an inevitable consequence.

Put it this way; if Reddit itself charged even 1$/month to comment/post, do you think people would stay? I think they'd flee off to Tiktok personally. Older users would try and rekindle older forums,but overall I don't think many would stay, even if $1/month is almost objectively a good deal for the content provided. There's too much other popular platforms that are "free". And if enough of the community gets pushed, they can migrate elsewhere. They ultimately hold the value.

I don't think this is the push, but it's always possible.

[sschueller]

Banning NSFW content has nothing to do with "reddit users being too cheap". It also doesn't cost reddit anything since content moderation is mostly done by moderators for free.

[johnnyanmac]

That one is specifically annoying because "NSFW" is such a generic filter that doesn't always have something to do with sexual content. Some communities mark themselves as 18+ simply as a safeguard against SOME media they talk about that can be rated 16/17+ (R/M/MA/etc). But That isn't the content adverts are worried abobut.

[Ekaros]

I think there is some perceived advertisement value. And some sales person might tell management that just banning NSFW might help pushing some number of more adds... Thus to get numbers up ban it.

[that_guy_iain]

To be fair, that one seems like a weird one for Reddit to hold their ground on. Maybe there are legal reasons. Or maybe they're being weird.

[wolpoli]

It's rather difficult to find enough non-cheap users that pay $5 a month (and remits $2.50 to Reddit) to support a viable third-party client for Reddit and compete against the first-party client that is free and has more content.

[Raicuparta]

I'm guessing you don't know much about the subject, and didn't read too deeply into it. Third party apps are only a part of the problem (which you're also misrepresenting), and not the one referenced in the comment you answered to. I suggest following the links in the post to understand the full depth of the problem.

[that_guy_iain]

I've read deeply into the problem. And I've come to the conclusion the problem is cheap reddit users who don't want to pay for software.

There are complaints that the offical app isn't accessible. Ok, pay for accessible software or complain enough to Reddit to fix their app. There are laws I believe to force them to have an accessible app.

Mods use tools to moderate. Ok. You want to have a little hobby of moderating a community. Fair enough, pay for your hobby. If not. Let Reddit fix the spam problem when it becomes a problem, because it will become a problem and Reddit will be forced to fix it because the users will hate it and it'll harm growth. If not, pay for the software to do your little hobby.

Just because someone has a different opinion doesn't mean they haven't read into it. It's that they have a different opinion than you.

I think software should cost money. Because I write software for a living and I think people should value what I do to the point they pay money for it. I know a lot of techies like to make our work worthless but I don't.

[autoexec]

>I think software should cost money.

What an odd opinion to have about software, but not about labor or content. Perhaps reddit should have to pay every moderator for the work that they do. Perhaps they should pay ever user who upvotes or downvotes since they're sorting content for reddit and not getting paid. Maybe reddit should pay for everyone who posts or leaves comments since the only reason reddit is worth anything at all is the content provided by those "cheap users" you think are freeloading.

If reddit wants to have a hobby where they run a website collecting the labor of others they should pay for it right?

The internet is a better place when everyone who uses a website isn't required for fork over hard cash. Not every means of displaying web content or interacting with websites should require someone to fork over money to those websites either. Worst of all though is how dumb reddit is being to cut off these third party tools and interfaces which have features that are in high demand. Reddit will lose users if those users are forced to use their shitty interface, but worse reddit will lose a ton of data on what sorts of features their users desire but which reddit has never considered offering.

One of the great things about having a bunch of third parties writing software (mostly for free) that interacts with reddit is that reddit can (as they have in the past) poach ideas from those apps and improve their service which will only make them more successful.

The people who work for reddit (by which I mean the people who are currently paid to work for reddit since most of the people doing work for reddit are entirely unpaid) are not impoverished. No one is suggesting that they deserve nothing at all. It's perfectly fine for them to make money, it's not fine for them to try to make money by screwing over others (including themselves). This is shortsighted greed on reddit's part that will ultimately result in reddit being worse. It's no wonder so many people are against it.

[that_guy_iain]

Trying to be clever. This isn't it. "You're not that guy" as they say.

> What an odd opinion to have about software, but not about labor or content.

At what point have I promoted slavery? I think paying content creators is great and has done wonders for YouTube for example.

> Perhaps reddit should have to pay every moderator for the work that they do.

I would much prefer that. That way we would stop having such annoying power trippy moderators. We would also see a more consistant approach to moderating. But that would deny these moderators their little hobby.

> If reddit wants to have a hobby where they run a website collecting the labor of others they should pay for it right?

Do they collect? They don't. Collecting would mean they go out and get it. Even in such a simple position like that your logic falls part very simply. They allow others to use their services.

I wasn't againist Reddit providing a free API just like I am not againist others providing free things. If people wish to charge for their content or charge for moderating then I fully support them and would speak out against any nay-sayers.

> The internet is a better place when everyone who uses a website isn't required for fork over hard cash.

There are no plans to charge for the website. Just plans to charge for an API. These are two very separate things. As pointed out, some of the users of the API are direct competitors of Reddit.

[johnnyanmac]

>You want to have a little hobby of moderating a community. Fair enough, pay for your hobby.

not sure I agree with this angle. If anything it's the opposite. just like how software dev is a job, so is community management. Reddit already has what amounts to free custodial labor, growing and fostering the site for them. They should be paying people to moderate that if they don't want their admins/internal Community Managers to bother with anything more than legally threatening content.

[that_guy_iain]

True.

But just like software development, people do community management for a hobby.

[johnnyanmac]

To each their own, but you can't even pay me to deal with angry users who can't read the rules of the forum they want to post to, day in and day out. I'll never understand people who do so in their own personal time. Again, not unless they are using that as "portfolio fodder" to pivot into a professional CM role.

[voxelghost]

    Mods use tools to moderate. Ok. You want to have a little hobby of moderating a community. Fair enough, pay for your hobby. If not. Let Reddit fix the spam problem when it becomes a problem, because it will become a problem and Reddit will be forced to fix it because the users will hate it and it'll harm growth. If not, pay for the software to do your little hobby.

Actually, I think this is one point where Reddit could score some good will points by letting moderators use the API for free to access the communities they moderate.

[that_guy_iain]

Personally, I would. But they announced that they're working on their own tools to improve it so maybe they're literally just going to provide all those tools for free. Who knows.

[1letterunixname]

This is the failure of wishful thinking of users and of a mainstream culture that condones corporate takeover of all areas of the commonwealth (common good).

The best move is to not play with corporations and to move towards well-run nonprofits and social ventures that can deliver a useful utility. There aren't many existent examples of this.

[davidguetta]

To be blunt it's would be a bit dumb to "expect" to have a say in business affairs when all you do is something like moderating a cat subreddit for your own enjoyment..

Be happy while it lasted is the good approach. Cover contracts are bad in general but in this case this would just be insane

[tennisflyi]

I'm a mod on one subreddit and I squat a couple more. I think most subs are relatively small, so it doesn't require much effort. It probably takes me no more than 30 minutes a week, at the most!