[codegeek]

As a parent, I am watching the latest generation of kids where they are struggling to find meaningful work because some of them never worked a day in their life. I want to avoid that situation. I obviously am not advocating for child labor in a meat packing plant working night shifts around dangerous tools and machinery.

[mmarq]

I “never worked a day in my life” until I turned 19 and found my first job. You don’t need to work in you mid teens to find a meaningful job as an adult.

[mathgladiator]

I was raking leaves when I was 13, and I started freelancing 15...

Why? Well, it started because I wanted to play Mario Kart on Super Nintendo...

There is something about developing a work ethic as a young person that is important. It starts with chores like mowing the yard.

[xracy]

There's nothing that says you can't develop this without depending on child labor.

I work hard, and my first job was when I was 18. Nothing about a work ethic is special to working hard in a job. Some of the most impressive people I work with had really impressive school work ethics.

[bko]

It's not just about work ethic. It's about social skills. I worked as a lifeguard for 6 years and the amount of skills I picked up from socializing with the parents and children really helped me out. I probably learned a lot more from that job than I did at school. I learned things about psychology and raising children as I saw a lot of parents with different styles and got to follow their kids as they grew up. I learned about responsibility and showing up on time. I learned how to manage money. And probably most importantly I learned how to talk to adults. It was my most rewarding and fond memory of my childhood.

The alternative life path was basically me staying at home for hours playing Diablo 2.

[xracy]

Because there aren't real people on the internet who you can learn social skills from? With any of this, you get out what you put in. Social skills can absolutely be learned at school, and often are. Try again.

> I learned how to manage money. And probably most importantly I learned how to talk to adults.

I learned how to manage money from an very simple allowance for chores my parents gave me. But also... I really learned to manage money at 18 due to a number of things including college expenses and other stuff. Managing money is not the end-all you think has to be learned at a job. Home Ec is a real class in most public schools.

Talking to adults is a thing you learn by living and interacting in the world. You might've happened to learn some of it at work, but there is no requirement to learning it at work. Also, there's nothing that special about talking to adults that's that different from talking to teenagers... Basics of conversation are simple.

> It was my most rewarding and fond memory of my childhood.

None of this justifies child labor. There are plenty of other rewarding opportunities that don't mean that children have to work dangerous meat-packing jobs.

Very importantly, there are plenty of paths that are not your path that were equally valid. (I'm telling you this from experience). Just because you did it that way doesn't mean everyone has to, or necessarily even should. Not saying the way you were raised was wrong, but we've learned a lot more about child-rearing. We don't have to pull out dunce caps just because people had associations with having to go through that in school.

[bko]

> Because there aren't real people on the internet who you can learn social skills from?

Ah yes, the famously well adjusted always online teens.

> Also, there's nothing that special about talking to adults that's that different from talking to teenagers... Basics of conversation are simple.

Have you ever listened to teenagers talk to each other? I honestly can't tell if you're trolling.

[anonymouskimmer]

> There is something about developing a work ethic as a young person that is important.

I started delivering newspapers when I was 10. Dropped out of college and was somewhat depressed with a series of menial jobs. Eventually got on track again, got an A.S. and got a job in the industry I wanted to be in. But it was a low level job that left me very little autonomy and didn't tax my intelligence.

At some point I just stopped caring. A "work ethic" can be killed. Or can devolve into a "money" ethic where people play the kinds of financial engineering games that led to the 2008 recession.

I care again, but only because I'm not doing a menial job anymore.

[mathgladiator]

For context, I was 13 walking door to door asking neighbors if I could rake their yards. Fall was money. Same thing in winter with shoveling snow.

[codegeek]

You seem to get my argument. It is about helping your child develop good "Work Ethics" which unfortunately these days is equated to being exploited if you dare to bring it up.

[mmarq]

That’s not true at all. People work much harder than in the past, especially considering what they get back. 20-30 year olds are the first generation in almost a century that give away half of their waking hours and struggle to get decent housing.

Rates of unionisation are extremely low, strikes are extremely rare (it took a 30% real income loss before junior doctors started striking in the UK), employment rates are the highest throughout the world and unpaid overtime is the norm in almost all careers.

[jakelazaroff]

What exactly is important about it?

[mathgladiator]

Things have to get done.

I own a house. Some time ago, my plumbing had issues. I had to go down into my basement and deal with shit. Literal shit. Work ethic is what lets you put on the "I got things to do" hat, and then you do them.

That's just life. Life is hard and brutal requiring constant effort.

[sangnoir]

> Things have to get done

Is homework not inadequate to teach this lesson? Kids are not dumb.

There's a pervasive stench of Calvinism in American work culture, even among atheists. There's nothing sanctifying about work, insomuch as it is a good (or bad) thing to teach kids its importance by having them clock in.

Using children as a backup labor force due to an adult worker shortage is - as the kids call it - yucky.

[seanmcdirmid]

Maybe if I went to a more challenging school (I was already a straight A student who did all homework in class) I might not have needed a full time job during High School to drill some work ethic into me?

And I think a lot of people saying kids shouldn't work during school didn't have poor parents and the problems those conditions create if you can't take your destiny into your hands before that magical 18th birthday when you can do anything you want.

[mathgladiator]

Does homework have to get done? Like, really?

Growing up, the yard had to be done weekly. I did it, got paid, and I was able to walk to the store and buy shit. Work when done well is gratifying.

The way we think about jobs sucks...

[jakelazaroff]

Things get done when people are motivated to do them — either extrinsically ("I need money to not starve") or intrinsically ("I want my toilet to work").

Maybe I misunderstood you, but you seem to be talking about "work ethic" in the abstract, though — like, valuing the labor itself, rather than the fruits of it. My question is, why is that important? Who cares about labor for its own sake?

[codegeek]

Respectfully, I wouldn't want my kid to wait till 19 to do that. I want them to get a job the moment they turn 14-15 (whatever the legal age is in my state). I am very privileged and want my kids to learn the value of money and what it takes to survive in the real world. I want them to work in a dirty shitty McDonalds where they see how tough the real world is. Yes I wouldn't send them to a meat packing plant but there is big difference between never working or just working cool summer jobs and working in a meat factory. I want my kids to experience some hardship where your boss is yelling at you to get shit done. As long as it is not full abuse. I want my kids to learn that the World is not rainbow and sunshines from an early age. I still love them to death and would die for them.

[jakelazaroff]

I truly don’t understand the mindset that suffering is not only something that we should not try to eliminate, but something that we should actually indoctrinate people into.

[mathgladiator]

The truth is that we haven't solved automated all the jobs that require suffering.

With the worry about AI, I was staring at my plumbing stack the other day for hours... Realizing, this is a shit job in the truest form, and I couldn't figure out how a machine could do it.

The reason to understand the suffering, to indoctrinate people as you say, is to teach people to respect those that have these jobs. Life is hard, and we are in it together.

[jakelazaroff]

I agree with the end you're talking about — respecting people who have difficult jobs — but I find the means bizarre. Can you not respect someone without having put yourself in the exact same position? Your default position should be empathy!

But you also glossed over an important point I'm trying to make: we should see suffering as a sometimes necessary evil and try to alleviate it whenever possible, rather than see it as some sort of virtue.

[BasedAnon]

Why do you think work a worse fate than school? At least with work you get paid for your time and effort, and get the chance to network with people older than yourself

[NickBusey]

> I want my kids to experience some hardship where your boss is yelling at you to get shit done

This is a horrendous take, and I’m glad you’re not my parent.

They’ll learn the world isn’t rainbows and sunshine without being in a toxic work environment before they’re even old enough to vote.

[codegeek]

See, that's where I disagree where a tough boss is considered "toxic" nowadays.

[Timon3]

A "tough boss" is very different from a "yelling boss". If you can't control your emotions enough not to yell at your fellow people, you should have no power over anybody.

[austhrow743]

Why is a dirty shitty McDonalds more real world than an upbringing where you didn't arbitrarily force that on them?

[mmarq]

If I want my child to learn anything about bosses that shout, is that you don’t let anybody shout at you.

[libraryatnight]

You're willing to come into a thread as a parent making comments in defense of child labor (your note saying you're not advocating it is at odds with your comment and irrelevant),based on your myopic generalization of a generation. Youve got cranky old person brain and are flirting with dangerous solutions. a pitty

[codegeek]

I am not advocating for Child Labor. Putting a 15 year old in a Meat Packing plant working night shifts is wrong. I would never advocate for that. But I wanted to highlight that we have gone in the other direction too much as a culture where kids are over protected and we no longer teach them work ethics at an early age and that creates problems when many of them get out there in the real world after 18. I have seen many in my own friends/family and I refuse to let my kids go through the same.

[libraryatnight]

Your feeling about what direction you think anything is going is irrelevant and again limited, it's a personal insecurity it has no place here in a thread discussing an article describing what you claim to know is wrong while sewing some doubt that it's wrong because of anecdotal anxiety