[pengaru]

Is lithium even the most problematic raw material the batteries need in high volume?

I thought the actual problematic ingredient was in the anode/cathode, not the electrolyte, Cobalt rings a bell.

Edit:

"Lithium is one of the most common elements in the universe, we've got lithium pretty much everywhere" ... "you could get lithium from sea water" ... "it's called lithium ion but that's like the salt in the salad, do you like salt in your salad? sure, but it's not made of salt" - elon musk on jre #1609

[culi]

That's a really silly take. It's like asking why nitrogen is such a limiting growth factor in almost every plant despite being so common in the air.

We're a long ways off from being able to harvest lithium from, e.g., saltwater in a way that doesn't require more energy put into it the energy that's saved by the technologies made with the mineral. There's only a few places where it makes even economic sense to mine lithium and the environmental effects are pretty devastating. Chemicals like hydrochloric acid nearly always contaminate nearby groundwater used by people and more-than-humans alike. Even in Australia where it's mined with more traditional methods from a rock, toxic chemicals are still required to process it into a usable form

[pengaru]

The impression I have is that since lithium is everywhere, this is just a matter of the extraction industries scaling up and maturing for that specific mineral. There will be a lot of players, the price is destined to plummet as long as it continues being the mass-market electrolyte of choice.

Unlike with something like a rare earth metal, which no amount of extraction optimization can put within your borders if your continent is geologically unlucky.

[kccqzy]

Cobalt isn't used any more in mass-market, cheap EVs. Carmakers have begun to switch to lithium iron phosphate rather than lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxides.

[culi]

Yes but this is more of a corner being cut. LFP batteries have lower energy densities and lower operating voltage. Also it's being spearheaded by only a handful of companies. Tesla and BYD alone account for 68% of LFP battery usage

[kccqzy]

That's not a corner being cut. I said it's being targeted at mass-market cheap EVs. It's just market differentiation. People who don't want to pay for "long range" EVs get cheaper batteries; what's wrong with that?

[culi]

Fair enough. My point is that it's still an untested technology. Tesla drivers are reporting stuff like as much as 10% less range due to these batteries

[makomk]

It's old, pretty well tested technology with a much better lifespan and lower deterioration in capacity over time than normal lithium ion - it was just a little niche until recently because it had lower energy density than more common lithium ion technologies and was more expensive than lead acid. Mostly got used in electric buses and stationary (or sometimes boat) applications before, I think.

[m4rtink]

Tha does not sound like a bad trade-off at all, actually. :)