[mboperator]

I was a staff software engineer (front end lol so take that for what it is) at a medium sized B2B SaaS company that turned into a unicorn during my time there.

I quit in 2019 to start a company. In 2020 my time was split 80/20 between building a company and working alongside brothers and sisters in my local church.

In the past couple of years I’ve degreased kitchens, demolished walls, hauled concrete, done some electrical, metal work, automotive, woodworking, janitorial, hauled bags of salt and piled em up two stories high in a metal warehouse during a thunderstorm. Dirt under your nails work.

Yes 80% of my time was still tech (working on hardware though, which is a nice change) but I wouldn’t give the 20% for the world.

There’s a deep satisfaction in putting forth real effort - mentally and physically with sweat and sometimes blood - doing something that’s taxing, alongside and for the people in your community you know and love.

The things that separate and seem so large - cultural background, socioeconomic status, upbringing - they melt away when you’re in the dirt laboring together.

And I understand that this is coming from a privileged viewpoint. And that I had the choice to take on these things while others don’t. But in a way that makes it more meaningful.

Jesus didn’t have to empty Himself of His power. God Himself chose to humble Himself taking the form of a man and instead of being a ruler over the humanity while He was here, He chose to live among the lowest of the low. To love and care for the folks that society tried to pretend didn’t exist without any gain, self aggrandization, or virtue signaling. To die for us in order that if we turn away from the world and towards Him in faith we would be saved from the sin inside of us that separates us from God and warrants His judgment.

Jesus’ love makes me want to be like Him. I’m nowhere close — often foolish and more often still selfish. But in His presence there’s fullness of joy and an abundance of life that’s only found in sacrificing one’s self to Him.

[idiotsecant]

Anyone romanticizing physical work based on doing it as an unpaid hobby is not experiencing what it's like to actually rely on that kind of work to survive. You aren't 'living like the common people do' because you do some work for your church sometimes. You're an otherwise rich tech worker who also likes to do physical things sometimes as part of a community.

Working as a shift engineer at an industrial facility is not even remotely the same thing.

[screwturner68]

I equate this to the people working with habitat for humanity (no offense it's a great program) but these people are for the most part cos playing construction workers. But there's no foreman busting your ass because you are moving too slow or the general disregard for safety because you only have 3 days to frame out the house and it rained yesterday. It's no different than when the CEO works the register at some coffee place or fast food joint -look at me I work hard just like the little people. It's a show, in the end they go back to their rarefied positions and their outrageous salary not understanding that somebody has to do that back breaking work every day and for a wage a lot people wouldn't get out of bed for. I'd also add that they likely did a shit job that would gt you fired if you weren't working for free.

Do it everyday and live off the low wages for a year and then come back and tell me how fulfilling it is.

[patrick451]

I worked in the trades for almost a decade before switching to tech. Frankly, manual labor is far more fulfilling than anything I've done in tech. I'd still be doing it if it paid more.

[6510]

> Do it everyday and live off the low wages for a year and then come back and tell me how fulfilling it is.

That makes no difference, it is still a choice. As soon as you've figured out you can rub 2 stones together and make fire you will never [again] get to experience the cold nights as something unavoidable.

Why do we work at all? Why not travel the world and enjoy ourselves? The only reason I can think of is that insecurity is terrifying. Then the next guy pulls his guitar out of its bag and people start throwing money in his hat.

Escape velocity right there!

[notjtrig]

Construction work isn't that hard or back breaking. One guy's operating a machine and one guy is spotting him, you drive a lot, take hour lunches, sleep in the machines. $25 an hour to start. Foreman's are usually busy with the people above them.

I run a homestead as my primary means of surviving, it's similar work, 12 hour days, a fraction of the pay and pretty darn fulfilling.

[red-iron-pine]

How many years you been on construction sites, killer? Homestead =/= most builder jobs.

And on the homestead you're working for you, at your pace

[cm2012]

My buddy is in construction and he is ripped from all the heavy lifting at his job, he doesn't work out in any other way.

[screwturner68]

Gottach, you aren't in the trades, you work for yourself on your own plot of land. That's exactly like working a 12 hour day in 10 degrees in an empty sky scraper. Herding your goats is not construction.

[mahogany]

Huh, what an interesting and specific rant toward Habitat for Humanity volunteers. Is it your experience that those volunteers pretend to be "real" construction workers?

[ransom1538]

"Anyone romanticizing physical work based on doing it as an unpaid hobby"

Exactly. Being homeless is different than camping. One is a mental hell hole of despair. The other is fishing and laughing with friends.

[explaininjs]

Homelessness is not a mental hell hole of despair, and claiming it is does more to dehumanize the homeless than anything.

Being in a mental hell hole of disparity is a mental hell hole of despair, but that can come with any profession at any position on the socioeconomic ladder.

(am homeless)

[evilos]

"Being homeless is not always bad!" is not a take I was expecting to see today.

I'd bet 99.99% of homeless people would extremely prefer not to be.

[aatd86]

Yes, strange. Homeless yet posting on hackernews is not what the vast majority of homeless people are doing I bet.

I've seen some people struggle and they didn't have that kind of leisure time.

Perhaps it's homeless as in not owning an address? Don't know. Can happen given rent prices... Been there.

[norgie]

Where is that in the parent comment?

[explaininjs]

Thanks for this. All I said is we don’t live in a deep hole of despair. Sure parts are bad, but I don’t know of anyone who lives with absolutely no bad in their life.

[CogitoCogito]

> I'd bet 99.99% of homeless people would extremely prefer not to be.

I’m curious what /u/explaininjs would have to say about this given he/she claims to be homeless.

[explaininjs]

The real percentage is far smaller. I suspect the parent has only encountered homeless beggars, in the context of being begged at. If that’s all you knew I could see how you might think they hate it.

In reality homeless place a higher value on personal freedom than most, and the absolute happiest people I’ve ever met were all homeless with no intention of being otherwise. For these, possessions often come from donations they receive from people they meet and develop real connections with.

[6510]

It is different in that you get to fish and laugh with friends the year round in stead of just 14 days recovery from that to-fast moving conveyor belt in that noisy stinking factory for that boss who hates you.

[dzhiurgis]

This does distort the market for everyone who actually try to get paid for cleaning and mechanical work…

[padobson]

Didn't think I'd see camels going through needle eyes on HN today, but here we are!

[LeFantome]

Big assumption that people are going to get that reference

[joenot443]

It's among the most famous of Christian metaphors, I'd actually be surprised if it went over the head of a well-read individual.

[crossroadsguy]

An individual or a Christian individual? I guess it’s far fetched weird assumption either way.

[red-iron-pine]

While religion is on the decline in the US, Christianity is still the dominants religion, and it's a famous parable. And this is an American, English-language website; it's not crazy to think that much of the population has heard the saying.

HN is also a cyber-entrepreneur website, and if there is anyone willing to disregard that saying extra hard they're here too...

[meetingthrower]

Did you know "needles eye" does not refer to sewing needle? I'm told it actually referred to something like a cattle gate. So the message is actually "hard but not impossible..."

[krapp]

According to Wikipedia, there's no actual evidence for such a gate, so this seems like apocrypha meant to soften the message.

But given that we're talking about the man who preached "give up everything you have and follow me" and "let the dead bury their own dead" I'd favor the more radical interpretation being the most likely.

edit: Oh yeah, parable of the talents, too.

[worthless-trash]

Let the dead bury their own dead, soooo zombies ?

[ratsimihah]

i google it and it worked out

[jasonladuke0311]

Crazy huh? Almost like a peculiar arrangement of words might be referenced elsewhere.

[paulcole]

> There’s a deep satisfaction in putting forth real effort - mentally and physically with sweat and sometimes blood - doing something that’s taxing, alongside and for the people in your community you know and love.

I don't know if I'm alone in this, but I've never felt this. I have no interest in this and take no satisfaction from it. If somebody wants something from me I'll give my money. Obviously I give my time for my job so I get money but that's only because I have to work.

If I didn't have to work, I wouldn't. I took 3 years off once and kept to myself and loved it. Didn't contribute to society besides spending money.

[HeyLaughingBoy]

I don't get it either. I'm a very senior engineer and I also live on a horse sanctuary. Taking care of horses is hard, very physical work that has to be done every day, regardless of weather or how deathly ill you feel.

It's a pain in the ass. People ask if it's rewarding. No, it's just pain in the ass labor that has to get done. The only reason I do it is so my wife doesn't have to do all the work by herself.

[padobson]

I took 3 years off once and kept to myself and loved it.

Were you stoned the whole time?

I only ask because if you're loving what you're doing, then there's usually some modus operandi or Summum bonum driving you.

A really good high is pretty straightforward.

Most others I know about tend to require something that contributes to a community, but certainly study or meditation can be lonely yet meaningful pursuits.

[paulcole]

Nope! Took molly once during those 3 years, but other than that I've abstained from drugs, alcohol, and soda pop my entire life (I'm 100% non-religious though).

I read books, went to the gym, went on walks, rode my bike, hung out with friends, went on dates, went to the movies, went on the internet, and that was it. Absolute best time of my life.

[gabereiser]

Jesus was outcast by the temple for speaking against Jewish law. That kind made him “of the people”. Anyway, giving back to one’s community - either through church or a volunteer organization like Habitat for Humanity or Food Banks are very purposeful when money is taken out of the equation.

[ThorsBane]

Jesus was an outcast because he told the truth including on the nature of the Jewish law. He didn’t speak against the Jewish law.

[gabereiser]

Everything was either for or against jewish law back then. Even the romans knew it. Truth or not.

[windexh8er]

> Dirt under your nails work.

I feel like this is important, at least for me, to maintain a balance. I have a small bit of land. I'm often building with wood or metal. I'm lucky enough to have a shop/outbuilding where I can do those things like machine, weld, paint, cut, etc.

I grew up in a small town (less than 3500 people) and I was a pretty fanatical gear head. I thought, at around 10, I had my mind made up and I was going to be a mechanical engineer. It was a way to combine two things I loved: computers and machines. But then I stumbled across a new undergrad program at one of our state universities focusing on networking, programming and *nix OSes and fell down that rabbit hole. On one hand I'm glad I did, on the other hand I'm still tinkering with things like Fusion 360 and vCarve. Maybe it's that it's not my professional life but building real things has a different reward. I've built, extended and upgraded countless corporate networks and have mostly specialized in network security over the years. But it's really good to physically build or fix something. I've got dirt and grease under my nails often.

[joenot443]

That's a really refreshing and admirable career story, thank you for sharing. I think so many people's problems with their mental wellbeing would dramatically improve if they had a community which fosters the type of 20% work you're describing. Great stuff.

[steve_adams_86]

> front end lol so take that for what it is

It is what you make it. Some front end developers are the best software developers I’ve had the fortune of working with. Front end problems can be legitimately complex and difficult.

[travisporter]

I was with you until “only” in the very last sentence.

[iknowstuff]

Ah yes god

[bazmattaz]

The man himself