[it_citizen]

This is very simplified.

A lot of western countries, Germany first, believed that if we traded and opened up to those countries, they would naturally tend to adopt western values.

It turned out to be incorrect. China being an even better example. But it was not a crazy assumption at the time, and coming after the fact is hindsight 20/20.

Honestly, even knowing how things turned out, I am proud that the west tried.

[ChuckNorris89]

>if we traded and opened up to those countries, they would naturally tend to adopt western values.

You can't possibly tell me with a straight face that your argument is "Germany didn't know that Russia invading 3 countries was bad and it hoped Russia would come around if it just kept buying gas from them and pumping trillions in their economy which Russia spent on its military would make them more peaceful".

It's safe to assume that either Germany doesn't know when to take a hint that after 3 invasions, your trading partner is not gonna come around, or Germany was actively ignoring Russia's warmongering for it's own benefit.

Either way it looks bad on Germany and no made up excuses are gonna cut it.

[it_citizen]

I am glad Germany didn't stop trading with the US after they invaded Irak by producing fake witnesses, or the second time by fabricating proofs, or Afghanistan.

Diplomacy is not black and white.

[spamizbad]

As an American: It should’ve. If a firmer hand was taken it could’ve saved thousands of lives. France and Germany wagged its finger but basically waved us through.

[this_user]

There was nothing that could have been done from the outside to stop that. The only people who could have made a difference were the citizens of the United States, but about 80% of them thought the invasion was a good idea.

[ivan_gammel]

Germany did not ignore Russian military invasions, which can be easily demonstrated by specific actions that German government took at that time. Notably those actions were not much different from what USA or other European countries except a few with anti-Russian paranoia did. Besides, there were two, not three invasions. Chechnya is not a country.

[practice9]

> Chechnya is not a country.

There was a Chechen Republic of Ichkeria that existed until getting slaughtered, occupied, and retrospectively written out of the books by Russia.

Yeltsin (and later Putin) was a baddie that West hoped to trade with, so they were willing to push aside the issue of Chechnya calling it an internal conflict.

But in reality the level of Russian war crimes was unparalleled, sometimes even worse than what's happening in Ukraine.

Internationally no high-ranking Russian officials or military officers were ever prosecuted or actually condemned for these war crimes.

Most countries have turned a blind eye and didn't act with urgency: https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2020...

[ivan_gammel]

Chechnya as independent country did not exist in 1990s. There was no legal mechanism for it to leave Russia, no democratic process to leave, no recognition by other countries etc. Separatists committed numerous crimes against civil population in Chechnya and outside it and eventually switched to terrorist methods, attacking schools, hospitals and cultural events (e.g. Budennovsk, Beslan, Nord-Ost). Basically, they were Russian version of Hamas or other radical organizations in Middle East. Not the type you would ever negotiate any independence with.

[nr2x]

And yet the USA and Poland were screaming at the top of their lungs to not do nord stream and the German public didn’t care. At all.

[pydry]

Of course they didn't care. The USA were screaming because they wanted to flog more expensive LNG to Germany and Poland was screaming because they wanted their transit fees.

The US screamed so loudly that Nord Stream exploded.

[throw0101b]

> The USA were screaming because they wanted to flog more expensive LNG […]

The US has been screaming at DE since the 1980s, decades before fracking and LNG was a thing:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urengoy–Pomary–Uzhhorod_pipeli...

* https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/03/blinken-secretary-state...

[nr2x]

No, no, no - that would mean there wasn’t a deep strand of sympathy for Russian ethnic-totalitarianism at play at the highest levels of the German establishment.

And of course it’s not like AfD actually, exists, or that the German security apparatus is riddled with Russian spies and Nazis.

[permo-w]

did we really think that or was it just a rationalisation of the desire for profit?

[it_citizen]

Good point. I think both?

Nations are not single minded. Political parties, individuals, companies, diplomats, each might have their own particular interest.

But I remember not long ago, "trade and free market will bring democratic institutions" being a pretty popular opinion.

[tuukkah]

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.