[DennisP]

Guns over food seems like a straw man. I was interesting in survivalism a couple decades ago, and every writer I came across put a heavy emphasis on water and food. Guns were something they considered necessary in an environment where you're one of the few with clean water and food. Trying to attack others who'd stocked up wasn't recommended by anyone; if they stocked up on food they'd probably have their own guns.

Eventually I read a great little book by someone who'd lived through the currency collapse in Argentina, who said all their rural survivalists got picked off by roving gangs. That doesn't mean the gangs had a great life expectancy either. He advocated staying in town and getting to know your neighbors, setting up a neighborhood watch, helping people start gardens, etc.

[iisan7]

Thanks for mentioning this. A quick search turned up this book, is it the right one? https://archive.org/details/modernsurvivalma0000agui. Fernando Aguirre, 2009. The Modern Survival Manual: Surviving the Economic Collapse.

It would be really interesting to compare/contrast his account from others from Ukraine, Syria, the Balkans. What I hear in your comment is that the advice you heard was about having weapons for a strong defensive posture rather than to be used offensively. I guess the strength of both communities and gangs is in their size, they'll win out over the lone wolf fantasy.

[DennisP]

Yep that's the book!

[chrisco255]

The U.S. was basically settled by rural survivalists not even four or five generations ago in most of the country. There is an abundance of clean water and food in North America but that never stopped rival natives from warring with each other, and raiding, enslaving and pillaging their opponents, even before the Europeans brought their wars and rivalries to the continent.

That all being said, there isn't enough land in a town to feed a town. No, you can't live on an herb garden. You need many acres to feed a single family. All modern cities in particular are completely dependent on reliable deliveries from mass production farming operations in rural communities. If that supply chain ever was cut off, there would not be enough food in the cities for the millions that live in them.

[i2cmaster]

Maybe the Western US was. The Midwest and East has been settled for many times that.

[chrisco255]

My own great great grandfather settled in frontier Minnesota in the 1860s from Norway (assigned to move there by the immigration department of the time). It was still very sparsely populated in the 1860s, and was on the edge of the frontier with the Sioux Indians controlling much of the territory. The Federal government had reached an agreement with the Sioux to pay for land, but during the tense and financially constrained period of the Civil War, the government fell behind on annuity payments. So the Sioux retaliated by attacking and killing 600+ immigrants that had settled in the land the Sioux had sold. My ancestors barely escaped, their house was burnt down, and the ensuing wars with the Sioux persisted for several decades afterwards.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/dakota/Dak_acc...

[danaris]

Serious survivalists know perfectly well that what you'll need is water, food, and skills like farming, spinning, sewing, cleaning, digging latrines, etc.

Unfortunately, there are a hell of a lot of people in the US who are essentially "survival LARPers" who imagine themselves as heroic alpha (or, better, sigma!) wolves who fight off thousands of degenerates coming for their canned food. ...Hey, did anyone think to get a can opener?

[chrisco255]

A hell of a lot of Americans are descendents of literal frontiersmen and women who were subjected to cow thieves, roving gangs, robberies, Indian raids, revolutions, European proxy wars, dust bowls, depressions, and terrible diseases (with no cures in their day) hundreds to thousands of miles from the closest forts or cities.

Yeah no one in the country doesn't own a can opener AND a shotgun or rifle AND know how to can their own veggies. But if you don't have peace, you aren't going to be able to farm in peace.

Do you even have acreage to farm? Do you have tools and skills to farm? If not, how would you get access to it?

[danaris]

First of all: Those "frontiersmen" suffering "Indian raids" looked, from a very slightly different perspective, an awful lot like "foreign invaders who murdered millions and took their homes being attacked by some of the few that remained trying desperately to avoid also being murdered and having their homes stolen." Parroting Manifest Destiny narratives isn't a good look in 2023.

Also those "dust bowls" were largely caused by their own incompetence at land management, expecting to import a specific brand of European farming practices to a completely different continent with many different biomes and have everything Just Work, because, of course, God Wanted Them To Take It.

I'm also not trying to claim that there's no value in having the knowledge and tools to defend yourself. But when you've got a bunker full of thousands and thousands of rounds of ammo, enough canned food to survive unpleasantly for about 6 months, and no understanding of how to grow more or interest in learning, that speaks of someone who expects to be murdering other people and taking their food to survive for the rest of his life.

If you want to farm enough to feed your family, you don't need 2,000 acres of farmland. That kind of acreage is mostly needed for specialist farmers and for grain. Furthermore, what's actually effective at making you ready to survive in a situation like what's being posited isn't total self-sufficiency: it's community. The people in the area get together and work out what land should be used for the village's potatoes, peppers, onions, etc, what should be used for pasturage for the animals, and what should be left fallow this year. (Hopefully in collaboration with some of the indigenous people who we haven't totally managed to wipe out, and some of whom still retain their historical land management practices, which were effective at making this land a flourishing place providing plenty of food for millennia before my ancestors came and tried to exterminate them in the name of gold, God, and glory.)

[timerol]

Yes, every serious survivalist puts a heavy emphasis on water and food. I was not talking about the serious survivalists - I was calling out the silly minority