[tjr225]

If these workers could get remote jobs, they would- but they can’t. Amazon knows this, and probably can’t wait for them to quit.

For now all they can do is complain about having to go to an office to be a spoiled, overpaid tech worker. If I had that job I would be keeping my mouth shut and enjoying the paycheck, but to each their own I suppose.

[crop_rotation]

Most of them sadly can not get even a non remote job easily. Most of big tech, and Amazon specially, massively lowered their hiring floor to hire more over the years, and are full of extremely incompetent people who will find it hard to survive elsewhere. Orgs are more like fiefdoms and full of incompetent people. A lot of such incompetent people know they are incompetent and go to massive lengths to survive (getting credit for everything they can, acting as information gatekeepers whenever they can).

[neilv]

> Most of big tech, and Amazon specially, massively lowered their hiring floor to hire more over the years, and are full of extremely incompetent people

If that's true, it'd add insult to injury, for the people who were interested in the better FAANGs... but got turned off by the stack of months' worth of prep materials that FAANG in-house recruiters would send to candidates, for their kabuki theatre of interview processes.

One of my recent theories about the interview processes promoted by FAANGs is that they (by accident or design) tend to neuter students against becoming upstart competitors. Think of all those students in school who could have time for side projects, considering startups, developing skills that woudl be useful in startups... and instead FAANGs have trained students to conceive of the very skills as passing the FAANG interview rituals, and to spend their spare time practicing for those rituals. Not only are those students less likely to start a startup, but startups that happen still have to find the workers who are amenable to thinking like creative engineers, and working as a team focused on a shared goal, despite all the FAANG-like messaging to young developers that has infected CS departments and broader industry.

[crop_rotation]

The interview process, despite all it's shortcomings, was a good filter. It has been massively neutered in the recent years and is gamed every which way now by the hiring team's leadership, which is the one of the main reasons responsible for massive dilution in median talent.

The interview process is flawed, but it did prevent totally incompetent candidates. Now instead of being replaced with an alternative which measures something else, it has just been watered down.

[CSMastermind]

Large tech definitely hires in part defensively. They might not need all those people but no one else can have them either.

[x86x87]

Who can get a remote job easily? The top performers. Incoming dead sea effect.

[crop_rotation]

Yes, so return to office will cause top performers to leave. The incompetent people are not going anywhere due to such policies.

[hw]

I know lots of top performers who enjoy being back in the office, and low performers who would prefer WFH so they can coast under the radar

[x86x87]

Lol. Lots! All of the top performers.

Because sitting in traffic pissing your life and time away is #worthit.

Because being able to eat a healthy lunch you make youself is lame.

Because going to the office to attend virtual meetings on Chime is the best.

[DenisM]

Astute observation. I imagine this effect will eventually consume any company. Or will it? Do we know of a way to stave it off?

[crop_rotation]

No, sadly there is no good way to stave it off.

The thing is, the incompetents who are not experts in org politics get sidelined/moved out, and the ones who remain relevant are experts who keep rising with the singular goal of building their fiefdoms. They would sell the company for pennies if they could get 2 more promotions.

By now there are enough incompetent people at VP and director levels in most companies. There is no way to identify performers from the CEO level, and at VP and director levels the incentives are to find the people best for yourself, not for the company.

[cvoss]

Believe it or not, there are other motivating factors for doing good work than money. Just because I'm fairly compensated doesn't mean I'm going to tolerate major inconveniences that impede my ability to work efficiently, productively, and with a positive attitude. Part of why I want to do my job well is because I find the work itself gratifying. Once that motivating factor vanishes, I'm going to complain or look elsewhere for work. It's in both parties' best interest for complaints to happen, to be heard, and to be addressed, so that workers can get back to being both content for themselves and productive for the company.

[mbgerring]

Instead of begging to be exploited by billionaires, yob could band together with your fellow tech workers and win better treatment for all of us.

[tjr225]

What? These people have lives better than 99% of the population.

[clipsy]

So do medical doctors; and they've preserved that status by unionizing to protect it.

[hw]

Medical doctors spend a lot of time and money in med school and residency. They have malpractice risk, and perform more essential work like saving lives and improving people’s health, your health. Working a hospital especially in the ED is stressful. No stock options, rsu grants.

Tech workers on the other hand, say engineers, can easily get a high paying FAANG job without a 4yr degree - just spending time grinding leetcode or a coding bootcamp. Not to mention the RSUs, office perks like free lunches, WFH, on site laundry and daycare, flexible time off, no set work hours… come on

[clipsy]

> Tech workers on the other hand, say engineers, can easily get a high paying FAANG job without a 4yr degree

It is prima facie absurd to say that tech workers can "easily" get a job at FAANG; if it were that easy to work at FAANG surely the 50%[0] of Software Engineers who make less than $121k or 75%[0] of Software Engineers who make less than $152k would simply do so.

[0]: https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-develope...

[o1y32]

Did you just make things up?

There are people who work at FAANG without a degree, but that's the absolute minority. Most people have spent years on a formal education, many of which have a master's or even PhDs.

[forgetbook]

> office perks like free lunches, WFH, on site laundry and daycare

WFH perks like lunch, laundry, and daycare.

[x86x87]

Amazon has a small window to force the drones back to the office. Once people start having options we're done. WFH will be here to stay.

[worrycue]

After they force people back to office then what? It’s not like they won’t leave if they manage to get remote job elsewhere.

Frankly, I don’t get this drive to RTO. The only gain is face to face meetings might improve productivity (in some people). The downside is increased pollution due to commuting - even with EVs you are wearing out tires increase the amount of micro plastics in the environment, wearing out their batteries, and wasting electricity.

[hw]

> It’s not like they won’t leave if they manage to get remote job elsewhere.

Even without RTO, people will still leave for other jobs if the grass is greener on the other side. If anything, WFH makes it easier for someone to go job hunting and do interviews.

If the environment is your downside to RTO - you’re reaching.

The loss in productivity when someone does 2 hours in traffic a day is probably a more compelling argument. Companies also have to stock their pantry, hire more office management, renew their office space leases.

[zamalek]

It's not only the environment, RTO also clogs the road for those who are causally tied to a job location (doctors, nurses, baristas, chefs, waste management, etc.).

> 2 hours in traffic a day

I'm starting to wonder if demanding that commute being paid work time would be a reasonable tradeoff (that I wouldn't take myself). If being at the office is part of the job description, then commuting logically follows as a job function.

At the moment, employers are ripping into employees time at the monetary expense of employees. Should we just live closer? Sure! Let's talk about compensating employees for property prices and home security.

[worrycue]

For most people the waste of time, energy, and money commuting is what they will care about but you can’t deny the environmental impact of millions of people commuting.

[x86x87]

Climate Pledge, amiright? /s

[benjaminwootton]

Objectively, people are seemingly being forced back to the office at least part time, and there are less WFH opportunities. Those in favour of WFH are losing the standoff.