[bandyaboot]

Somehow I doubt that that understanding between NATO and Ukraine that was 13 years old when Russia invaded is what OP had in mind when they referred to “plenty of talk before the war” and “not listening to the right channels”—13 years going on 100 I might add given all that had transpired during those years. I believe the OP was suggesting that there was current or recent talk of Ukraine joining NATO, which if true, would obviously justify Russia’s attempt to obliterate the country. /s

[runsWphotons]

I had in mind the entire 30 year history since independence during which certain factions have been pushing for NATO presence and eventual membership. The person below who says Putin "had already won on NATO" is wrong, from Putin's perspective, since his win condition was a guarantee that Ukraine would never join. This exact point was a sticking condition in the failed negotiations before 2022.

I think the poster has some point though, in that it is not all Ukrainian factions that have been pushing for this, and was perhaps not them as much as western powers which prevented this concession (their policy is influenced by their more powerful neighbours and backers!)

In the present, the secretary general of NATO Jens Stoltenberg has said "Let me be clear: Ukraine’s rightful place is in the Euro-Atlantic family. Ukraine’s rightful place is in NATO. And over time, our support will help you make this possible."

I never "justified" Russia's actions.

[bandyaboot]

> When the war started there were no talking what's so ever about NATO expansion to Ukraine.

You were replying to a comment that’s clearly referring to current or recent talk of Ukraine joining NATO at the time of the invasion.

> In the present, the secretary general of NATO Jens Stoltenberg has said "Let me be clear: Ukraine’s rightful place is in the Euro-Atlantic family. Ukraine’s rightful place is in NATO. And over time, our support will help you make this possible.”

Yes, obviously things are different now. Ukraine may very well be the next step in the NATO expansion that Putin has imposed upon himself.