| Don't know what to tell you. I was in the room and writing the code on a lot of this, and what you're saying doesn't correspond to the whys and the whats that were on the whiteboard at that time. "It is hard to have two smart, outspoken, and opinionated people work on the same piece of code." But all the stuff discussed here - dbus, gstreamer, EWMH, GNOME, etc. - has had dozens (e.g. EWMH, dbus), hundreds (e.g. gstreamer) or even thousands (e.g. GNOME, Fedora, Ubuntu) of contributors. And that's not counting all the people that build on top of those things, it's only counting the ones who contribute to them directly. "it is infinitely easier to create in Linux than it is to fix" I've always found in open source that it's harder to find people to create, than to fix. I mean yeah, there's a background noise of a thousand 1-person projects being born and dying every day. But the big projects with momentum are full of dedicated people primarily interested in incremental change. Most of the technologies we're talking about here are in the range of 6-12 years old, with no significant overhaul or replacement in that time. For perspective, Firefox (as "Phoenix") appeared 9 years ago, and Mac OS 10.0 is 10 years old. It feels tough to argue that Linux is moving faster than Apple, Microsoft, Google, web tech, etc. It's relatively stable as OS's go. Sure, Solaris and IRIX are (were?) even older and there was prior art on all sorts of fronts. If you'd like to argue that the original Linux desktop efforts should have copied more from those: you're probably right on some of the specifics. It's easy to say this or that could be slightly better if you look at a huge piece of software like a full Linux distribution. What counts is the software that exists, not the software we all coulda woulda shoulda written. There were a few hundred people who probably worked on or around Linux desktop IPC back then, and I think zero argued that SUNRPC was a good option. Maybe it was, and someone could have showed up to prove it in code. They did not. Instead, a number of other systems were coded and tried (MICO, ORBit, DCOP, IPC-over-X11, even SOAP), and in the end dbus caught on as a working solution. By that time everyone had a lot of hard knocks and knew what problems they were trying to solve. All the solutions people tried worked fine for sending a message. That was not what differentiated these approaches. The problems to solve included things like how to cross boundaries between systemwide daemons and user session; how to discover, activate, and track other apps and daemons; licensing issues; a least-common-denominator implementation that all the projects were willing to use; security model; etc. At some point dbus cleaned up everybody's ad hoc hacks and experiments, and now Linux is pretty uniform about using it and has been for years. Is it perfect? Not at all. It was just the first thing to be good enough and it stuck. If someone comes along and does something legitimately better and worth switching to, then I'm sure Linux will do so, and take a lot of heat for it too. "So rather than point out how wrong he is, ask 'what is he trying to say?' and deal with that." Well, I think he's trying to say what he says, which is "please don't write software which requires any of the Gnome/KDE and DBus API. Writing X11 programs with xcb and proper RPC APIs like SUNRPC or Thrift should be more than good enough." This is nonsense. The idea to use raw xcb rather than GTK or Qt or HTML: come on. You'd spend months getting to the point where you had crappy buttons and scrollbars working. Replicating user-expected and mandated functionality provided by the toolkits is a multi-year task to do _poorly_. You'd never, ever finish writing your app (and it'd suck, too). On the IPC front: you'd be adding yet another way to do it and thus more complexity. It's fine to say SUNRPC should have been chosen in 2001, but it wasn't, and rewriting hundreds of apps today is nuts. Whatever your dbus annoyances, you could solve them in one place and fix the whole system. More importantly, most of the newfangled (= 6-12 years old) crazy ideas that this post complains about, exist for some good reasons that the author of the post doesn't seem to be aware of. You could certainly build a system _involving_ SUNRPC or Thrift that would work. But you'd have to innovate on top with an understanding of the problem space. And what's the end-user benefit of that, at this point in time? I'd argue it's a big old zero. But if someone shows that there's enough benefit, I hope a new idea wins on the merits (and the running code). |