[ravensfan69]

I live in Baltimore, in a pretty "good" part of town where most of the young professionals and Hopkins hospital staff live. I know 4 different people who've had cars stolen in the past 24 months. In 3 of these cases the perpetrators were teenagers, and in 2 of these cases they brandished guns. Only one of these thefts were Hyundai/Kia-related, and the thief punched my buddy in the face during the theft.

Many others I know have had cars broken into, homes broken into, tons of packages stolen, property vandalized, etc. Basically any form of property crime you can imagine.

The idea that Hyundai or Kia are somehow culpable for these this extreme social dysfunction is absolutely farcical. Vagrants and criminals are kept like livestock by the local government and a class of parasitic NGOs- left to terrorize normal law-abiding citizens who barely have a legal recourse to violence should one of these incidents go sideways.

It would take Ra's al Ghul to resolve the problems of this city

[elif]

In my small neighborhood there is a group of 4 teenagers who have stolen probably a dozen kias. They drive them for 20 minutes, total them for a tik tok, and walk away with immunity. They have been arrested, charged, and released at least 3 times.

One of my neighbors has a recent kia that is not susceptible to these hacks, and 2 weeks ago witnessed these teens trying to steal her car one night. She went out and told them they were on camera, and they threatened her and kept trying to steal the car. She called the police who came later and explained steering wheel locks and did little else. The next night the same teens came back, and this time having learned about the details, went out and informed them that her car was not susceptible. They continued trying, damaging the ignition with a screwdriver but not stealing it. The third night in a row, she left a note explaining it in the window, which did not deter them but cause them to bust out the window with the note taped on it.

The city is now distributing steering wheel locks for free to any kia owners, but they have caused a local shortage and can no longer offer them.

I've had neighbors waiting for their appointment to have the ignition modified have their cars totaled.

If you street park your car, even if it isn't a kia, you have high odds of being side swiped by one of these kids on purpose.

It's not a car theft issue, it's a legal joyride and clout exercise. You are lucky if your city is still only experiencing car theft and not this new form of car terrorism.

[strix_varius]

"You stole a deadly vehicle and put people's lives in danger with it. Multiple times. You will be tried as an adult and the minimum sentence is 5 years."

Why is this not the obvious solution?

(not as if you could single-handedly enact it, of course, but why isn't the city's leadership doing so?)

[elif]

I'd be fine with this.

To be honest I don't understand the laws but in my city there is a dude who has literally been charged with car vandalism 90 times, let alone all the times he's gotten away with it.

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/atlanta-police-suspect-90-p...

[throwawaaarrgh]

This used to be the "solution", except all it did was act as a gladiator academy that turned out more hardened criminals after 5 years. Do that every year and every year you are just working a machine to create crime.

Turns out that just putting people in jail doesn't make society safer.

[pauldenton]

Letting the criminals roam free with impunity makes society less safe

[tinus_hn]

Turns out patting people on the back and tearfully nodding to the stories about their sad youth doesn’t make society safer either. Ultimately life just isn’t fair and people do need to be induced to take responsibility for themselves.

[brickteacup]

Just give violent criminals exponentially increasing sentences for each conviction. Then they'll only get a handful of chances to reoffend in their lifetime

[aksss]

Cities get what cities vote for. If they naively vote for "good intentions" over practical policy, there's a cost to the lessons learned. The cost may exceed the value, particularly if the lessons could be called self-evident. The cost can also be ruinous (e.g. Portland, S. Francisco.). In the long view, we can hope for correction and that the philosophical observer can say, "Well, that didn't work out like we thought it would", but this is cold comfort to the victims in the intervening years and the opportunity cost for the city at large.

From the outside, the policies seem to defy all common sense. Doubling down on bad policy seems like foolishness, naivety, denial, complicity, or AOTA. When the plane's computer is saying 'terrain.', 'terrain.', at what point do you decide to pull up, and what does that even look like in Balitmore? The complexity of Baltimore's problems brings out the defeatist in anyone, but I think there are some obvious starting points.

It reminds me of C.S. Lewis's statement about progress:

"Progress means getting nearer to the place you want to be. And if you have taken a wrong turn, then to go forward does not get you any nearer.

If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man."

Nearer to what are Baltimore's leader's trying to get?

[MavisBacon]

Baltimore is one of the most dangerous cities in the world, constantly dealing with people fleeing the city for the county, and they have been in large numbers since the 70s. Not the same flavor of hysteria as SF or Portland

[aksss]

I would suggest that something rhymes in the how prosecutorial discretion and bail policies are implemented in each of these places, though my point isn’t to compare one city to the other aside from them all being examples of “one reaps what one sows” at a practical policy level.

[MavisBacon]

Baltimore is one of the most entrenched cities in US on a number of levels. It’s kind of ridiculous you are comparing the hyperwoke follies of SF and Portland with the outright despair and corruption in Baltimore. We have not reaped what we have sown, we hardly have a shot

[hitekker]

They're not the same, but speaking as someone who's been both cities, there are some interesting similarities . Both endemic corruption by a single party which uses social issues as a ploy to forestall reform. Baltimore is a poor city that has been forgotten, whereas SF is a rich city in the limelight. Baltimore's problems begin much earlier, SF's problems are relatively more recent; but the rot in both speaks to a deeper shared problem in American society.

[aksss]

The longevity of a city's sad state doesn't seem to have any bearing on the dynamic of "bad policies delivering bad outcomes". I feel like this is the third time saying it so don't worry about a fourth, but the comparison was limited strictly to that equation.

The character of the bad outcomes certainly changes with longevity, such as entrenchment, as you mention. The fixes must also be different. I'm not disagreeing with you that these cities and their situations are entirely different.

[qchris]

As another person currently residing in Baltimore (and who just re-signed a lease to stay in a city I've enjoyed living in), it's worth pointing out that when people talk about "systemic" issues in policing and law enforcement, they're talking about things like the fact that for the last, oh, literally 162 years, Baltimore PD has not been administrated within the City of Baltimore, but instead by state lawmakers in the capital, Annapolis, which is around a 45-minute drive away. It's only been during the most recent local election that control was moving locally instead[1][2][3].

This kind of thing has resounding consequences. Baltimore is a city with a complicated history; for one thing, it's down from it's peak of almost 1M people to under 600k [4]. There's a significant history of racism in Maryland at large. There's a lot of fundamental issues, ranging from food deserts to lack of public transportation among the poorer areas. But to say that "[I]t would take Ra's al Ghul to resolve the problems of this city" is not true. It's certainly not all sunshine and roses, there's a lot of work being done at the grassroots as well, from new local investigative news organizations like the Baltimore Banner being funded to small makerspaces being set up in the now-plentiful well-built, but unused buildings that cities like Boston or Washington, DC. would only dream about having near their harbor or highways, and it's unfair to dismiss these things as being worthless.

[1] https://baltimorefishbowl.com/stories/baltimore-officials-co...

[2] https://www.wbaltv.com/article/baltimore-city-control-police...

[3] https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/politics-power/local-gove...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore#Demographics (other sources available)

[slowhand09]

I'll cherry-pick one line. "There's a lot of fundamental issues, ranging from food deserts to lack of public transportation among the poorer areas."

Food deserts in Baltimore? Like the Mondowmin Mall that was destroyed by residents during the Freddie Gray riots? And the companies that tried to rebuild and provide in the neighborhood, only to be robbed constantly to the point that companies gave up for not being able to guarantee workers'safety?

And public transport, in areas where cabbies fear to go, buses take hours, and electric scooters and bikes are routinely dumped in the harbor? Vandalism runs rampant. Bus seats are sliced open, gang members threaten riders, etc.

I hate what poor Baltimore has become. Yuppie white-collar Baltimore thrives, just not in these areas. 35 yrs ago I love going to Balt to play tourist. Nice people, Inner Harbor, restaurants, stores... Employed so many people. Corrupt city government at all levels, corrupt cops, and promotion of a victim mentality are some of the things that brought it down. Baltimore is screwed in general, by its own actions.

[qchris]

I'm not going to try to defend every bad thing about the city; as I clearly stated, it's not all sunshine and roses. But let's look a the public transport issues you names. Again, we can look how the state government under the former Governor Hogan persistently re-directed funding away from things like improving existing light rail or adding new lines[1][2] that would have benefited poorer, usually Black communities, and instead moved that money towards road maintenance or expansion further out into the state in wealthier, whiter ones.

A good example of this is the East-West Red Line project, which would have been the only cross-city rail line that didn't go North-South among the already well-serviced neighborhoods, with a lot of that money getting spent re-vitalizing those areas. But once again, this isn't a cause for dismissal--the new Governor Moore has made reviving the Red Line project possible again[3], which (if it happens), could be a huge boon for the city. Imagine NYC without the MTA or Boston without the MBTA--almost unthinkable. These kind of projects, which finally have the potential to become un-stalled, offer hope of moving Baltimore in that direction.

[1] https://washingtonmonthly.com/2022/06/20/larry-hogan-purple-...

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/fiv...

[3] https://www.wbaltv.com/article/reviving-baltimore-red-line-p...

[mrbonner]

Seattle reporting in! Mine was a victim of smash and grab.

[thejarren]

As someone who owns a Hyundai and a Kia, this is an interesting thread to read. Going to look into some safety steps moving forward.

[Zircom]

I replaced my Hyundai badges with Toyota ones I 3D printed to fit and just completely took off the Elantra lettering

[dmbche]

A good option is to install one or two hidden switches that need activating corectly for the fuel pump to run - even with your key they won't be able to take your car.

I think it's Autralia where like 80% of the car theft are done with the owner's key? (Too lazy to look for the citation)

[dmbche]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH19CDA5t_8

Good scotty kilmer video on one such option

[kevin_thibedeau]

They'll smash your windows anyway. Only safe option is to switch brands.

[unholythree]

This is largely true. I own an Elantra, had a window, the ignition, and steering column trashed, and the would be thief failed to actually steal the car. I was still out almost $1200 after towing and my deductible.

Having a steering wheel lock has worked so far since then, but there is a tremendous incentive for someone to ruin my car again given the chance, since it'll (maybe always) appear to be an easy target, kill switch or no.

[ChuckNorris89]

>It would take Ra's al Ghul to resolve the problems of this city

I heard OCP has some ideas and products they'd like to pitch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMtqRir7dco

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYsulVXpgYg

[local_crmdgeon]

Yeah, at some point in Chicago and Baltimore people figured out that career criminals vote, and will vote in their own interests. Very few people vote in local elections anyway, so they've managed to elect a ton of prosecutors who promise not to prosecute.

Feels like the 70s in Urban America repeating itself. I feel bad for the older Black population in Baltimore. They busted ass for the last 50 years and they got to enjoy a really lovely city from like 2009 to 2013. Imagine growing up like Henrietta Lacks, only to have all your shit stolen by teenagers who are legally untouchable.

[MavisBacon]

Most career criminals have a felony conviction under their belt and thus would not be able to vote, so this does not make a whole lot of sense

[btilly]

The interaction between felony convictions and being able to vote varies by state. You can find a map of the rules at https://www.aclu.org/issues/voting-rights/voter-restoration/....

In Baltimore, Maryland, you cannot vote while in prison. But you can once you get out. Felony conviction or no.

(I honestly don't think that the population with felony convictions are significant factors in elections, but they can and do vote.)

[MavisBacon]

Ah my apologies, that change came in 2016 after I moved. Appreciate the correction

[vkou]

Please provide a citation for the insane claim that career criminals are a major voting block sufficient to consistently swing elections.

[shuckles]

You don’t have to be a major voting block to be a consistently consequential swing vote. California is a major voting block but its interests are rarely persuasive in federal politics because it’s never a swing vote in elections.

[pedrosorio]

Logical nitpick: you argued “A does not imply B”, by providing an example of (not A, B). You need (A, not B) to make that argument.

[shuckles]

That’s fair. The logic still holds: Ohio’s interests are over-represented in Federal politics even though it’s not major because it’s important on the margins.

[throwaway6734]

Why? There are plenty of middle class black neighborhoods in Baltimore and the long term outlook continues to look better after the nadir of 2015.

[hoofhearted]

Citations needed.

Please don’t come on my turf and start trashing out city without facts.

I just looked down my street to Fort McHenry and our flag was still there :)

[tedajax]

Legitimately insane take, thank you

[matthewdgreen]

Car theft is a compound problem. Some cars are stolen because their security systems are garbage. Others are stolen at gunpoint. I don’t understand why the existence of one problem means we shouldn’t try to solve the other.

[throwawaaarrgh]

You don't need Ra's al Ghul to build transit, improve educative, open more small businesses and start more after school and job training programs. People turn to crime because they don't have other options. And even with those things in place, it will take decades to un-learn the behaviors people learn in a straight up survival/war zone. We have to reckon with reality and buckle down for very long periods of hard work, or it really won't improve.

[tinus_hn]

It could be intended as a distraction but the ease at which it is possible to steal those cars quite arguably does not meet any standard of care, and Kia clearly agrees, otherwise they wouldn’t be scrambling for workarounds and solutions.

[tyingq]

I agree that Hyundai and Kia don't own the whole problem. But they are unusual in shipping new cars without immobilizers. And it is solely done to reduce cost. That does contribute the the problem.

[scarab92]

Were they required to?

[tyingq]

Not by some specific regulation, no. IANAL, but that doesn't necessarily shield you from liability when you do something that's unusual for the industry.

[throwanem]

I wouldn't call Charles Village "good". I like it, but...

[JoeJonathan]

NGOs “keep” vagrants and criminals like livestock to terrorize law abiding citizens? This is so vague that I have no idea what you’re suggesting is actually going on.

[pauldenton]

How about prosecutors who recieved support from George Soros or affiliated groups are declining to bring charges against criminals for long list of offenses?

[kevinthew]

There is data on the Kia/Hyundai problem that is unique to these makes because they cut corners on safety features that are standard across industry -- I don't know why your anecdote of people getting carjacked is relevant at all?

[ravensfan69]

> "Theft and violence reigns supreme in a lawless urban wasteland" > "How are these anecdotes relevant?"

This is a tremendous leap in logic, but I am suggesting that Baltimore's problems can and do exist wholly independently of the engineering standards of Korean automakers

[khm]

It doesn't. Cars which are easy theft targets have an actual impact on police availability, because they have to investigate this shit alongside problems that people didn't create for themselves by buying shitty cars. Just because it doesn't directly affect you, personally, doesn't indicate that problems are unrelated.

[anon84873628]

Ok. I mean, we've all seen The Wire. But the problem with Kia and Hyundai is happening in other cities across the country, and is well documented on social media. There absolutely is something special about these particular makes, so discounting it just doesn't make sense.

[emodendroket]

All of which is neither here nor there when it comes to their failure to install common antitheft measures other manufacturers do, even taking it at face value (which frankly I find hard to do).

[quickthrower2]

It might be hear or there when it comes to suing them. They would need to show that the antitheft deficiencies caused more crime. Or did it shift it to different manufacturers cars.

From other comments I get the sense that yes they can show this, but defence can argue that the crime would happen anyway. A bit like the security system doesn’t stop a burglar it makes them walk to the next home.

[emodendroket]

I wouldn’t be so sure that more people don’t commit crimes if they’re just really easy. Imagine someone leaving their car unlocked with a sack of cash sitting on the driver’s seat. Isn’t it pretty easy to imagine someone taking that even if they’re not exactly committed enough to theft to smash cars’ windows and rifle through the gloveboxes?

[quickthrower2]

Good point, and I imagine it is a bit of both. Probably need a crime stats and sociology expert to chip in.

[throwaway6734]

Haha it won't take Ra's or Bane, just more time and more people with money moving into the city and helping to build out the tax base.

Imo now is a great time to buy property if you can deal with the rest.

Sorry to hear about the bad string of luck those close to you have had. It's vile and disgusting how much psychopathic behavior is tolerated by some residents in the city.

[caditinpiscinam]

This viewpoint is so backwards to me.

Rich people buy up the nicest houses. They buy themselves new Teslas. They buy $5k sofas and $10k refrigerators and $20k NFTs. They hire landscapers and cleaners and movers and roofers and pay them minimum wage, or less. They buy up all the other houses and rent them out for double the mortgage payments. They get a $50k bonus from their job at some payday-loan-app startup and they buy another Tesla. All while their neighbors starve.

And then one day someone steals one of their Teslas, and they bemoan the injustice that normal, law-abiding citizens like them face and resolve to hate the poor even more.

It's social dysfunction alright, just not how you think.

[kilotaras]

> And then one day someone steals one of their Teslas, and they bemoan the injustice that normal, law-abiding citizens like them face and resolve to hate the poor even more.

They hire private security for they gated community, don't have any Teslas stolen, bemoan on how poor kids that steal cars are a result of dysfunctional society and pat each other on backs for being so progressive. All while completely ignoring the fact that it's mostly other poor people, who are victims of those crimes. See [0]

[0] https://robkhenderson.substack.com/p/status-symbols-and-the-...

[pauldenton]

Rich people are insulated from the consequences of their own ideology it's the poor who suffer