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by aww_dang
1137 days ago
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I agree with the poster in that I wouldn't want to live in a cult like society or a socialist commune. The question is: "Why can socialists not develop a more desirable communal order under purely voluntary conditions?" Naturally, under market forces those socialists would pursue these more desirable arrangements. >No, it means that as soon as there is a laissez-faire that allow wolves eating sheep, it's better to be a wolf even if your ideal was to be a sheep. Most analogies are problematic, but this one is especially so. Voluntary association is equated with "wolves eating sheep" or violence. While violent repression of free exchange is somehow peaceful. From that point I'd expect an invocation of the (widely debunked) labor theory of value, followed by a sloppy generalization claiming free exchange is exploitative in all cases. The well known analogy of wolves and sheep is, "Democracy is like two wolves and a sheep voting on what is for dinner" At least far back as Plato, the problem of the tyranny of the majority has been raised. Perhaps this is the more desirable outcome? |
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But why capitalists don't do so too? Why is there still capitalists living in countries with strong socialist policies like in Canada, Europe, ... Sure, those countries are not socialist ideals, but they are certainly not capitalist or libertarian ideals either.
It feels like you are assuming that the default world is "capitalist", and that the socialists have to prove themselves. The reality is that the capitalist ideal is as rare as the socialist one (but when asked about that, some pro-capitalists will come up with reasons or excuses that they will never accept when they are used by pro-socialists. It's not a discussion, they just believe they are smarter when they are not)
> Voluntary association is equated with "wolves eating sheep" or violence.
You did not understand the analogy. When someone does an analogy with bees and flowers in it, it does not mean that they mean that sexual relationships involve literal honey. If my analogy contains wolves and sheep, it does not mean that I mean that society, capitalism or interaction between socialists and capitalists involve literal wolf-vs-sheep predation.
Simply, it is incorrect to say that if you let everyone be free, everyone will be able to reach their ideal. The wolves and sheep thing is not an analogy, it's an counter-example showing that this way of thinking is just very very naive.
As for capitalism, capitalism is different from socialism, it interacts differently, BUT it interacts with socialists. It is stupid to pretend that socialists are somehow living in a bubble and capitalists in another bubble. If a bakery is using the capitalist system to diffuse bread, it affects the bakery next door that is using the socialist system to diffuse bread. And inversely, sometimes it is even the socialist system that is the "wolf" for the capitalism. But the interaction is complex and pretending that it does not impact the choice of individuals that will therefore not choose their ideal but choose what is best in the current environment is ridiculous.