[_vbnz]

American engineers are lucky to earn enough to be able to save up and do stuff like this, like on $200k you can save enough to really try a start-up for a year or two.

Whereas in Europe we're lucky to get $80k in the same jobs, and then the state steals half of that :/

[iancmceachern]

We also have to pay a lot more out of pocket for basic services like healthcare,, transportation, childcare, etc.

[boc]

You’re paying for healthcare at a tech company? Usually your company provides this as a benefit. Same for commuter subsidies.

[iancmceachern]

I'm not paying the premium for health insurance, no. But I am paying 200 a month to upgrade to "platinum", I'm paying 400 a month because Blue Shield lists a lifesaving medicine I've been on for 2 decades as a tier 3 drug, so I had to battle with them for 3 weeks to get them to "cover" it at 400 a month out of my pocket. I then have a 4k per family deductible we need to reach on top of the drug co-pays. So when my wife thought she broke her toe it cost is 1500 out of pocket. This is the absolute best, top tier platinum" insurance afforded me administered by a "non profit" that was stripped of much of its non profit status for making billions in profit.

All that adds up to 7204 out of our pocket per year before any sort of catastrophic or even regular event like childbirth.

And we're the lucky ones

[prottog]

The difference between $200k and $80k soothes the ache of that $7204 quite nicely, I suppose.

[missedthecue]

This is the big thing. The bigger salary more than covers the difference. And it's not just tech. Nurses in the UK make 25,000 pounds per year, nurses in the US make $85k or more.

I would rather have the higher salary with student loans, my own health insurance, and no subsidized childcare than make 25K GBP (at a higher tax rate!)

[iancmceachern]

Exactly, it's not unheard of for police officers to make up to 300k a year, including overtime, here in the bay area. Starting pay for many "regular" jobs is well over 6 figures here

[wizofaus]

Fine as long as you're able to keep earning said salary. It's the state you end up in when you're not for whatever reason that's arguably the big difference. My own partner's a nurse and has gone through extensive periods where her income has been low or non-existent and while it wasn't really an issue given the presence of my salary to fall back on it's not hard to see how difficult things might become esp. if there were no/limited government subsidized healthcare and high levels of student debt (again, thankfully not such a problem in Australia - even as a foreign student, as she was, there are measures in place to ensure they don't saddle themselves with unreasonable debt. Citizens can often pay off higher education fees within a few years of graduating, and no repayments are required in years your salary is below a certain threshold)

[adave]

QoL in Europe is way better than US.Labor laws and life in general is better even with the lower pay as its all relative.

[iancmceachern]

Agreed, I think all those things amount to less stress, less stress to just exist as a regular human.

[lghh]

Even with best-in-class health insurance in the US, one "gotcha" leaves you with an unpayable bill. Usually, your company provides health insurance. Health insurance != health care. Larger companies (I assume this translates to tech) will also usually have a clinic on-site for smaller things and it's heavily subsidized or free.

None of this prevents you from 6-figure debt for something like a difficult, but largely by-the-book, birthing experience or a car accident.

[memonkey]

You can also have the best-in-class health insurance and flat out be denied coverage for whatever reason the insurance provider says.

[water554]

Most insurance plans have an out of pocket maximum, no?

[sheepybloke]

Generally it's out of pocket maximum to a point, like $250k. Then it's normally split, something like 80-20, where you have to cover 20% of the bill. That seems like a lot until you have something like cancer, where you need surgery plus chemo in the same year, which adds up quite fast.

[lotsofpulp]

> Generally it's out of pocket maximum to a point, like $250k. Then it's normally split, something like 80-20, where you have to cover 20% of the bill.

Not since the Affordable Care Act of 2010. It got rid of benefit maximums and implemented out of pocket maximum. An out of pocket maximum up to a limit is a contradiction. The situation works exactly opposite, you first pay 100% up to deductible, then you pay a proportion according to your copay, then you pay 0% after the out of pocket maximum.

Annual out of pocket maximums are typically $5k to $10k for individual/family at any half decent employer.

Legally, the maximums are $9.1k/$18.2k.

https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/out-of-pocket-maximum-li...

[iancmceachern]

Yes, but it can be tens of thousands in many cases, and it does not cover many things that it should, insurance companies put deliberate effort into screwing people put of their claims.

[lotsofpulp]

The legal maximum is $9.1k for an individual and $18.2k for a family. At any half decent employer, it will be $5k/$10k at most.

[ActorNightly]

>one "gotcha" leaves you with an unpayable bill

It is next to unheard of to have an extremely large bill if you have good health insurance. Even if you do, at tech levels of salary, if you were to effectively save the extra money, you should have no problems covering it.

[Salgat]

I wish. My wife and I both work at different big tech companies as developers and the only thing health insurance does is guarantee we won't go bankrupt in the event of an emergency. Last month on top of spending several hundred on the monthly insurance cost, I spent $300 on rather mundane pediatrician appointments for my two kids who had ear infections. Ironically I had much better healthcare coverage when I worked at a steel mill.

[l33t233372]

I think they’re referring to the time after they leave to go work at a start up.

[spondylosaurus]

Depending on the plan, you may still be on the hook for part of your premium. And if you have any dependents (kids, spouse, etc.) the cost of their premiums is fully your responsibility.

[emrah]

Yes there is usually a "employee cost" associated with health insurance although the employer usually pays a bigger portion of the total cost

[oh_sigh]

I've never heard of any big tech co fully subsidizing healthcare. I pay ~$160/week between health/vision/dental

[ProfessorLayton]

Is $160/week just for your coverage? I've worked at small startups and medium sized public companies, and my healthcare coverage costs have been far less than that.

[ghaff]

I can believe that for a good family plan. But that's probably more than you'd pay without a subsidy for a pretty good individual plan.

[oh_sigh]

Correct - I should have mentioned that is for 4 people(total) covered

[prottog]

If you subtract $8320/year from a big tech salary, I'd wager you'll still find yourself quite handsomely compensated.

[oh_sigh]

Absolutely, but that doesn't mean I pay nothing out of pocket for healthcare.

[Eumenes]

Many companies pay 100% of premium costs for you and your dependents

[oh_sigh]

I can only speak from experience - I've worked at 3/5 FAANGs and none of them did

[Eumenes]

yeah this would be more mid stage startup I've found, like 750-1500 employees, pre IPO

[iancmceachern]

Many don't also

[Eumenes]

Its also like <$200 per month for most companies, pretty good for someone making north of $200k.

[tcmart14]

It depends. I work at a tech company as an engineer and insurance eats about $1K/month. My employer contributes only about $400 to the plan.The total plan cost is $1.4K. Keep in mind, while I pay this just for insurance, I am waiting to get a $3,000 dollar bill from the hospital (still!) for when my daughter had to go to the ER in December.

[cjf101]

Outside of FAANG experience.

Dental plans rarely cover anything more than basic maintenance costs. One procedure and you can end up pretty deep into pocket.

If you require regular medication, that can run pretty deep over a year too, since pharmacare plans have copays.

[missedthecue]

Dental coverage is not available in many places with nationalized healthcare, such as Canada, Italy, Norway, the Netherlands, and de facto uncovered in the UK. You must pay with a private plan or out of pocket. Only a portion of costs is covered in France, Denmark, and Belgium while the patient must pay the entire amount upfront.

Germany has a situation similar to the US where basic care is fully covered, but more complicated care is not fully covered.

[xur17]

Yeah, dental plans are honestly kind of stupid. They typically have a MAXIMUM amount they will cover, after which you have to pay out of pocket. Which.. is not what I purchase insurance for. I purchase insurance to cover me for the huge bills I can't afford that would destroy me.

That said, if my employer is going to subsidize it, I'm going to take the free money.

[ActorNightly]

In EU, you also pay for healthcare and transport, just indirectly in the form of taxes, which is why tax rates are much higher.

There is a cross over point for salary in US where below that, it becomes advantageous to live in EU, but tech salaries are well above this point.

[lillecarl]

My manager moved from the US to Sweden, said he got about 60% in Sweden. His Wife isn't working in Sweden yet and they still have more money on pocket. Very anecdotal and might be inflated one way or the other. But I'm not so sure it's as clear-cut as some might think. Unless you're the top X % raking in the biggest $$

[ActorNightly]

You don't have to be top X%. If you are single and graduating college, you will absolutely net more money in US in the tech sector, way more if you are exceptionally skilled.

After that, it depends on your living situation and family situation. Of course 200k in California with 3 kids and a house is likely going to be less than what you could make in EU.

[akhosravian]

For anyone working in big tech it is very clear cut from a financial perspective. That isn’t the only consideration for sure, but it’s wishful thinking to believe otherwise.

[marklubi]

The wonderful part of this is that you get the choice.

Choose where you live, who you have for healthcare, who you use for childcare/schooling.

We have the opportunity to make that choice instead of having a bureaucracy making those choices for us.

[wizofaus]

In countries with socialised health insurance systems any political party that threatens to take it away (or defund it) tends not to get chosen at election time, strangely enough.

[harimau777]

Visas, different languages, and family mean that people often don't really have a choice. Likewise, most employers only provide insurance from a single provider.

[emrah]

I wouldn't really call it "having choices". Most services are duopolies at best.

[iancmceachern]

Let me fix it for you:

(If you are rich by most definitions) ...you get the choice

[ant6n]

In France, apparently you can go on unemployment for 2, up to 3 years to start a startup. With up to 80% pay.

In Germany you can get 6 months of unemployment insurance when starting a startup out of unemployment. Or get 6 months paid when starting a startup out of Uni. Then you could get various public funding opportunities like a startup bonus (for example 50K public funding for 50K private investment in an innovative company in Berlin).

[RestlessMind]

> In France, apparently you can go on unemployment for 2, up to 3 years to start a startup. With up to 80% pay.

Then why does France have such a low rate of new business formation (5.3/1000 people) - https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.BUS.NDNS.ZS?most_rec...

Or as another indicator, number of tech startups per Million is 234 for the US, while only 24 for France - https://www.startupranking.com/countries

[zer0tonin]

3 things:

- the culture is not the same as the US. French people tend to be very financially risk-averse

- the VC eco-system in France exists but it is trash

- people who have the skills to create startups in France tend to do it outside of France because they will have access to better capital/labor markets (for example, DataDog and Docker both have french founders)

[908B64B197]

> - people who have the skills to create startups in France tend to do it outside of France because they will have access to better capital/labor markets

There are a lot of French people here in the bay area.

From what they told me, it's actually easier to come to the bay area, navigate through the US immigration system and get funded than get funded at home. Not only that, some startups got funding from VC funds with LPs... from France!

[nickpp]

Also, how easy is it to fire people in France? If it’s difficult then startups will be much more reluctant to hire in the first place, and founders to embark on the whole startup adventure which necessarily implies a lot of hiring/firing.

[zer0tonin]

Quite hard, but other countries with similar labor laws (like the Netherlands) manage to have decent startup ecosystems.

[prottog]

> the culture is not the same as the US. French people tend to be very financially risk-averse

Interesting, given the number of people who claim that better social benefits in the US would encourage more startups and other business formation.

[ant6n]

There is no such claim. Id claim that a system that helps all of of society by providing health, employment, income, childcare, housing and transportation security isn’t necessarily completely toxic for a small number of Startup founders, as a system. Since it also may help founders to an extent. Its about individual risks that are possible.

The problem in Germany and France is the VC and business culture, but thats not primarily a result of income taxes.

[j0hnyl]

Because in France, in order to hire someone you need to have a shit ton of cash on hand... and then if they suck, you can't just fire them. It's too expensive to start a venture, so the folks that are willing to risk it leave in order to do so.

[adave]

Because tech talent is cheap for the amount of productivity in US with ability to fire at will.Ease of fooling and swindling people if you have the right connections. In Europe shit that gets you into jail is a just a small monetary fine in USA.

[unmole]

> In Europe shit that gets you into jail

How many people went to jail for Wirecard?

[p0nce]

Amazingly I did that for 3.5 years at 70% pay, I think the law changed after that. It is the biggest "incubator" in the country.

[bujak300]

Do you possibly have more specific information about france? I would love to know more

[sofixa]

There are a few different things:

You can get a part of what you would receive as unemployment benefits as capital to invest when creating/taking over a company: https://entreprendre.service-public.fr/vosdroits/F15252

And you can also just continue receiving unemployment benefits while creating a company, as long as revenues are below a certain threshold: https://www.legalstart.fr/fiches-pratiques/autoentrepreneur/...

[iancmceachern]

I was told they they just stopped this policy

[asnyder]

Not to mention that in Germany many University students not only get free schooling, but also housing AND a monthly stipend. Essentially UBI for students!

[FinnKuhn]

Definitely not really true. Under 15% of students receive BAFÖG [1]. No idea where you got the idea that German students get free housing at many Universities as that couldn't be further from the truth considering that there are only enough rooms for around 10% of all students [2] and those are definietly not free, although pretty cheap. However many struggle to find an Apartment, especially in bigger Cities like Berlin or Munich.

[1] https://www.bafoeg-rechner.de/Hintergrund/art-2416-bafoeg-st... [2] https://www.iwd.de/artikel/wohnungsnot-der-studenten-verscha...

[asnyder]

I said many, not all :). You're right, housing isn't free, but if you get student housing it's usually less than the monthly stipend thus free for the student.

[FinnKuhn]

not really. The average monthly stipend (that only 15% even get) is 579€, which is arguable not enough for rent in most bigger Cities (and that is ignoring that you also need to eat). The vast majority of students are either financed by their parents (the stipend is dependent on their income and if they earn more than a certain amount they a legally obligated to help their child) or by themselves. In Germany the university is mostly free (a couple hundred euros a semester), but most definitely don't live for "free".

[6510]

IMHO it is the worse time to start a startup. You should do it while still in the uni so that you can get all kinds of help. Equally good seems some actual experience(?) People have been writing software and running businesses for a good while. Maybe they know something?

[nxm]

*free=tax payer funded

[erulabs]

Just to add a non-snarky reply: I agree, we are lucky, but I fear (especially based on the replies to your statement), the majority of American engineers would prefer things to be more like they are in Europe.

"There are dozens of us!" that are aware of how lucky we are!

[908B64B197]

Is it really luck?

Where's the European phone, the European OS. European Cloud? ChatGPT?

American engineers and companies provide the bulk of tech's value added.

> Whereas in Europe we're lucky to get $80k in the same jobs, and then the state steals half of that :/

Are those really the same jobs?

[UncleMeat]

Europeans work at all of these companies.

[rcarmo]

And they either moved to the US or are putting up with earning less than half what their US counterparts do.

[UncleMeat]

Sure. But if you want to complain that europeans don't build these sorts of products as some sort of reason why they should expect lower pay, you need to engage with the fact that people living and working in europe are building these products.

[rcarmo]

That's not happening on equal terms.

[j0hnyl]

State steals half of ours here in the USA too if you live in a high cost of living city, which many well paid devs do.

[tristan957]

I live in a high cost of living city. Texas has no capital gains tax, no income tax, and I don't own a property (obviously I see this through higher rent at $1450 for a 1x1. I pay the 8.25% sales tax and my highest income tax bracket is 23%. I am nowhere near 50%.

[j0hnyl]

The highest cost of living city in Texas is not even in the top 10 most high cost of living cities in the US.

[groby_b]

On the flipside, we have no health insurance when we're laid off, and even getting the sniffles costs a fortune. As for layoffs, last I checked Europe has meaningful worker protections. Neither do we get six weeks of vacation over here. Parental leave (unless you're FAANG) is iffy. Unless you happen to conform to a demographic shape, you'll get treated pretty shittily by everybody, including the state.

But if you like living without a net in exchange for high pay, by all means, come over here.

[busterarm]

New York and California steal (at least) half too.

At least in Europe you get something for your taxes (okay, except maybe Germany).

[cjdoc29]

Can you expand on the "at least half" part?

On an income of $200k in California, for example, your tax rate is something like 8% (marginal). If you total it up with federal taxes, it's something like a 27% tax rate.

[thephyber]

Most likely your parent misunderstands the _marginal_ income tax rates.

That said, income tax is not the only kind of tax. In the US, federated government entities mean a mesh of taxes accumulate. Income tax + Payroll Tax + Social Security + Medicare + Property Tax + Sales Tax aggregate. CA and NY are a little higher than other competing states, but not by much.

[jen20]

Property tax is the one that people always forget in the US - especially when looking at places with “low” overall tax rates like Texas.

[busterarm]

Also NYC has city tax roughly between 3% & 4%.

[reducesuffering]

While the overall isn't as high as 50%, at $200k, your marginal income tax rate is 42.75%, a sales tax rate of 10%, and a property tax rate of 1.25%.

So, after $185k, while you've probably already paid 7% ($14k prop) on your home, and probably another 1% (2k sales), leading to what could be considered 50.75% tax.

[adave]

Wow and you have an appreciating asset(not really) and are buying stuff. It's way lower if you have a corp/LLC and just expense stuff along with reloc and depretiation. That said having a job sucks anywhere as you are the tax base.

[bradlys]

It’s about 36%. https://smartasset.com/taxes/paycheck-calculator#EcokmNT9zH

[0xBDB]

That appears to be the effective rate for income tax, but there are also sales taxes, "stamp" tax on things like houses and cars, excise taxes (especially on fuel), property tax, and inflation. I'm pretty confident you can get above half at a high income in California, New York, or especially Massachusetts.

You do get something for that, but it is surprising (to me anyway) for example how similar the percentages of GDP spent on social welfare are between the blue U.S. states and Australia, and how much more the Australians seem to get for the money.

[busterarm]

> You do get something for that, but it is surprising (to me anyway) for example how similar the percentages of GDP spent on social welfare are between the blue U.S. states and Australia, and how much more the Australians seem to get for the money.

Most social welfare programs that people can get in NY are niche. You generally have to meet certain demographic requirements. It also takes years of paperwork and waiting to get into anything if you aren't a single/battered mother.

I paid well over 40% of my income in taxes and had no hope of ever accumulating any assets or meaningful retirement and zero safety net if anything went south for me. My friends in Denmark and Sweden only paid a little bit more for what is effectively a cradle-to-grave nanny state. And they all manage to own their apartments.