[agonmon]

1. The people that don't want kids, cannot accurately model what it is like having kids. Your brain and hormonal output changes after a birth.

2. Children aren't that expensive unless the parents are playing status games (e.g. acting rich), and statistically it's poorer people that end up having more kids.

On the topic of sacrifice: One of my kids is just starting to stand up, and is using my shirt to pull herself up while squealing in triumph and delight. It's hard to express the fulfillment and existential meaning provided from children.

If I was told I would have to give them all up, it would be a soul-crushing sacrifice. Irrecoverable.

[paulryanrogers]

You can model the experience before having kids. Babysit a few different ages. Hormones don't always (ever?) change enough to overcome the predictable and significant costs. Likely more than 250k per child to get them to adulthood, and unlikely to stop there.

It also matter with whom and how you parent. Are sleep training, daycare, diapers, Tylenol, and bottle feeding the devil? Must you potty train from birth, diaper free? Naturopath parenting or bust?

Prepare yourself for sleep deprivation, higher risk of depression, many trips to the ER, and the smell of shit and piss. If your doctor or therapist insists you'll need medication and/or change your parenting style, then how many second opinions will you seek out before trying something else?

There is a balance of course, no one should neglect kids. Yet finding that, especially with an opinionated partner and the parent industrial complex, may be a long journey.

[agonmon]

In case anyone is using this to decide on having kids:

1. Babysitting is categorically different from taking care of your own kids. Ask any mother that babysat previously.

2. It doesn't take 250k to raise your child. That is referring to college costs, and between Junior College, summer internships, and some loans I paid off with my first job, it didn't cost my parents anything to put me through college. Your children should have agency.

3. Your parenting decisions don't matter as much as who you chose to make the children with. Don't waste time optimizing things that have little impact.

4. Sleep deprivation has not been an issue for us. People who have this issue probably are trying too hard to sleep train the baby.

5. I was depressed before having kids. Now I'm not. Take that with a grain of salt, but my hypothesis is that children provide existential meaning that keeps me from my previous depression.

6. I've gotten my kids' poop in my mouth. That would have horrified me before. Now it doesn't even register. None of the their smells illicit negative feelings.

7. Both parents should have strong opinions loosely held, since personalities of children differ even in the same family, you will have to collaboratively figure it out.

8. The parenting industrial complex is probably part of the reason birth rates are so low, and should be avoided in favor of more traditional parenting styles.

[paulryanrogers]

According to the USDA the average cost per child as of 2017 was 233K. That's not including college.

Take care to ask your partner what "traditional parenting" means to them. It may involve indoctrination in religion that teaches self hatred (born sinful), whipping the children with a switch, or intentionally infecting them with diseases that have vaccines.

When I say parenting industry, I'm talking about books, mommy blogs, and commenting areas like this where you'll often get all kinds of self reinforcement, feel good BS, and no/bad science. I've seen it lead to parents convinced that some ways are evil, usually well studied and common things that would make life easier (such as bottle feeding).

[agonmon]

We're moderately frugal (eat organic food, paid activities for the kids, live in CA), and our kids are on track to cost us each about 80k before university. That's less than a year salary for most HN readers.

Our friends that try to act rich have much higher costs. I assume that is where your cited number got so inflated.

Re. Parenting Industry: there's an excellent book called Hunt, Gather, Parent - which examines how traditional cultures raised children. Parenting isn't complicated, but modern marketing has completely muddied the waters.

[tarboreus]

Any other book or resource recommendations? Like your style in this thread.

[nunez]

> You can model the experience before having kids. Babysit a few different ages. Hormones don't always (ever?) change enough to overcome the predictable and significant costs. Likely more than 250k per child to get them to adulthood, and unlikely to stop there.

Agreed. I knew I didn't want kids because I knew many (MANY) parents with them and knew for sure I did not want that life, even the good parts.

[VirusNewbie]

>Babysit a few different ages.

That's such a weird thing to say. If I said "you can model what its like to be in a happy marriage. Hang out with some randos wife for a bit" you'd think that is crazy.

Plenty of kids are little shits. I really really like my kid (and some others). Just like I wouldn't marry most people I meet...

[paulryanrogers]

It's an approximation of course. IME far better than just hoping you'll like it and adapt, having never done anything like it. Dating and living together before marriage is much the same idea.

Of course you may babysit a bad kid and have your own great kids. Babysitting first will still at least provide a frame of reference.

[thatguymike]

Still strong disagree with that, having kids involves a lot of rote activities that are infused with meaning and joy if they’re for your kids. If you have a strong enough reaction that babysitting will give useful information (because you omg love kids, or because the very sound of crying makes you vomit) then you probably know that already; otherwise the babysitting exercise is going to be completely misleading.

[paulryanrogers]

Not everyone will find the decades of chores suddenly "infused with meaning and joy". People should be cautioned because if they're like me then they'll find they hate it and regret many of the decisions.

[ksaun]

I think what we parents are trying to communicate is that babysitting does not compare with parenting much at all. (I can't think of an effective analogy, unfortunately.)

It is true that parenting isn't for everyone. But you can find babysitting unpleasant and yet still find much joy and fulfillment in parenting. So I wouldn't suggest allowing your babysitting experiences to play a significant role in your decision about whether to have children.

(The inverse might be the case, though -- if you really enjoy babysitting then that could bode well for you liking parenting. I can't speak as well to that, but it seems plausible.)

And, as others have said, your coparent is a huge factor as well.

[paulryanrogers]

"we parents"? You certainly don't speak for me and I have several children.

I thought (and was told) my negative babysitting experiences were too narrow, unlike real parenting, and my hormones would change. IME none of that was true and I regret not giving the childcare experience more weight in whether to have (and how many) kids. And trust me, not everyone's hormones will change enough to overcome the costs, or otherwise find "special little moments".

[ksaun]

By "we parents," I was referring to those who had already posted similar opinions on this subthread. I didn't intend to imply I was speaking for all parents. (E.g., you had not posted yet, so you were not among those "trying to communicate.") I apologize that I was insufficiently precise with my wording to prevent misinterpretation, or if I misrepresented the "we" that I did implicate.

I agree, of course, that not every parent will feel it was worth the costs. And I didn't even give my personal opinion on that. My statement, which I still stand by, is that negative experiences babysitting should not be given heavy weight in the decision. Babysitting and parenting are not comparable experiences. I accept and concede that for some people maybe they feel similar enough in that they dislike both; I do not think this invalidates my point. (I'm unfamiliar with the "hormones" argument and cannot speak to that.)

[jemmyw]

Agreed, this would be a terrible measure. I can't stand other people's kids. But I enjoy being a parent. It is vastly different.