[rcme]

From a business perspective, this is great for Shopify. The labor market for software engineers has seriously softened as a result of all the layoffs. Go look at job openings and their posted salaries.

When Shopify beings hiring again, they are going to be able to hire talent at a fraction of the price.

Also, this is largely a coordinated effort from activist investors specifically targeting large tech salaries. E.g. https://www.businessinsider.com/google-layoffs-cut-jobs-exce...

There is essentially a vicious cycle targeting tech compensation. Activist investors are convincing boards that they're overpaying their tech talent. Then those boards approve layoffs. Then those layoffs further lower salaries. Rinse and repeat.

[mattgreenrocks]

It's not just tech compensation.

The zeitgeist right now is that employee comp is/was simply too high. There have lots of murmurings lately that amount to that at many different levels of the capital chain. Perhaps what's interesting about now is that people are quite okay with saying it openly. Tech is an easy target since it is well-known, and the pandemic inflated the importance of tech artificially to some degree.

Fully grokking the idea that employee comp could be "too high" for the overall health of the economy really did a number on my economic worldview. Gone is the naive belief that rare/valuable skills secure higher salaries over a long period of time. I no longer trust employers to take care of me, and that getting better at building assets (in the form of products, mostly) is something to grow into to supplant and eventually buy out time spent working for someone else.

[no_wizard]

Isn't this frustrating? Employees of course have the bare the brunt, but god forbid its shareholders and executives that need to scale down their payouts.

Feels so incredibly backward.

And yes I know its "stock performance" but what do you think drives this? With executive compensation mostly related to stocks, of course at the end of the day, thats what they want to drive up.

[rcme]

Employees have to bear the brunt of the effects because those making the macroeconomic decisions are part of the capitalist class. Jerome Powell was a partner at one of the world’s largest private equity firms. Is it any surprise that he’s trying to spin a narrative that employees are paid too much? Isn’t squeezing employees to increase profits what those in private equity typically do?

[908B64B197]

The serious companies have most of their employee's compensation in stock anyways.

[time_to_smile]

> Gone is the naive belief that rare/valuable skills secure higher salaries over a long period of time.

While I agree that this is a naive belief to have (at this point in my career I think there's almost a slightly negative correlation between skill and TC) the general talent pool for software engineers has, at least in my experience, dropped tremendously while TC has exploded.

The most important skills for getting high paying jobs in the last few years has been grinding leet code, then grinding systems design etc, etc. Software engineers no longer have "rare/valuable" skills, they have highly commodified, easily replicable skills (at least at the interview level).

Software engineers today simply aren't that skilled (at least on average) despite what they want to believe. It reminds me a lot of dotcom bubble where anyone with a pulse that could turn on a PC could get a high paying job.

[iamflimflam1]

Yes, hence comments like the one from the governor of the bank of England basically telling people that they needed to get used to being poorer.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/apr/25/britons-nee...

[tracerbulletx]

"Too high" = one of the only careers that wasn't completely soul crushing left.

[mattgreenrocks]

In this case, "too high" = "we haven't figured out how to commoditize it well enough yet because the skill floor/ceiling is too high to scale with cheaper talent." This was one of the primary reasons I began to specialize partially in tech domains that are regarded as "hard" (compilers/perf): much smaller market means employees have a bit more leverage.

[dfjkdksjds789]

Do you feel there is much demand in those areas? I'm interested in more theoretical things but have doubts that many jobs would be available or for them to be valued even though its more difficult

[mattgreenrocks]

Definitely a tradeoff: much fewer companies, but the ones that are left are higher quality if they are seeking out that sort of thing. It really depends on what you're looking for.

I settled into a role of research software engineer, where I do both applied research and development, applying a lot of compiler-ish stuff to different domains within cybersecurity, such as building out control flow graphs from binaries, thinking about how to instrument assembly code efficiently, fast pattern matching, and static analysis, where I am currently. The role fits me like a glove, but it isn't for everyone. In my job search, I started at, "I want a job doing compiler work," and eventually broadened scope a few times until I landed on, "I want a job where compiler-type approaches are on the table of possibilities." This offers a wider variety of work, which I like.

I can discuss more over email (check my HN profile) if you'd like, but most of what I know is US-centric due to how funding works for these types of research. Larger orgs like FAANGs also have it, but the pool is much more competitive, as you'd expect.

[dfjkdksjds789]

I'd love to have some more discussion especially on what areas within cybersecurity may have good demand :) Although I can't find the email in your profile or github!

Those parts you mentioned like the static analysis or control flow graphs sounds cool

[pcthrowaway]

Shopify was never paying top of market in the first place. They might be able to get better talent for the same price, but "a fraction of the price" to me has a connotation of "1 over (an integer bigger than 1)", meaning 1/2 or less what they were paying previously... and this is certainly not the case for them.

If you're going to suggest 9/10 is also a fraction or something I'll counter that 4/3 is also a fraction, and no one uses "a fraction of the price" to refer to an increase in price

[jonny_eh]

> When Shopify beings hiring again, they are going to be able to hire talent at a fraction of the price.

Wouldn't it be the opposite? When the market recovers, they'll competing with everyone else for talent, when instead if they held onto their talent, they could be paying less.

[908B64B197]

> When Shopify beings hiring again, they are going to be able to hire talent at a fraction of the price.

What I've been told about Shopify is that they were seen as a good place to get "western" experience before jumping ship (often for folks who couldn't pass the higher bar for US immigration) because they were already not very competitive with companies in the valley.

[raydev]

> Then those layoffs further lower salaries

Is there evidence of this now?

What I see is a small fraction of the open roles I'm used to seeing.

Compensation, on the other hand, is the same at these big companies. If not even higher than it was a couple years ago.

[pastor_bob]

Shopify already pays at the low end. I mean, not even relative to FAANG; you can make a similar salary at a government job as an engineer.

[dvdhnt]

This hasn't been true for the last couple of years.

source: I was a Shopify employee until today and can confirm my salary was closer to FAANG than not.

[mattgreenrocks]

Sorry to hear that. Hope you can find a new job soon!

[dvdhnt]

Much appreciated, thank you.

[exhibitapp]

this is absolutely not true, I know engineering managers with around 5-7 years of total experience ( aka people under 30 ) making $400,000 CAD in cash compensation at shop. They recently did a cash/equity split where employees could choose their split and not a huge surprise many chose the maximum cash

there are no government engineering positions in Canada paying anywhere close to this

[burke]

This was partially true at points (though we've always done quite a bit better than government), but categorically stopped being true with: https://news.shopify.com/rewriting-the-story-of-compensation -- now it's pretty competitive.

[zeroxfe]

Totally not true. My Shopify offer was slightly higher than my Google offer (as a re-hire), both base + stocks, about 3 years ago. However, going with Google really paid off because of the stock performance.

[amrocha]

They pay competitively now, but it took half the company quitting during covid covid for them to get to that point

[_jesse]

When did this change? I interviewed in fall 2021 and got a decent offer but ultimately took a higher offer elsewhere.

[inerte]

Last September. You now get $X per year and chose how much you want in stocks or cash. Depending on your level, a certain minimum of stock is necessary. Most Sr / Staff engineering had a floor of 10% stocks, but the rest is plain cash.

Shopify wasn't paying like FAANG, but also not like a startup. I would say 75% of a FAANG.

[ngcazz]

It's basically class warfare

[wesapien]

Capitalism is untenable and I say that with frustration as someone who was able to do better after growing up lower-middle class (kinda poor).

AI is already displacing some people from their work. I hate both absolute capitalism and socialism/communism. How can AI help us find a sweet spot?

[1attice]

Honestly, it can't. What it will do instead is cause the most abrupt wealth concentration in the history of humankind. This will create 'revolutionary' conditions, although the shape and direction of that revolution will differ from context to context. In some places, it is likely to be fascist; in others, socialist; in still others, unexplored, undiscovered options. It will be a time of experimentation -- or as Gramsci eloquently, and more pessimistically, put it, a "time of monsters."

But what is going away, permanently, is the space between extremes. Pour one out. I miss it already.

[moneywoes]

Can anything be done?

[peruvian]

Aside from unionizing, not much. Doesn't help that everyone that isn't working in tech thinks we're overpaid anyway.

[ceejayoz]

Yes. Unionize.