[nus07]

Last time I read a very reassuring and cogent letter by the CEO of Shopify about the layoffs . But at no point did the letter hint at further layoffs no less 20% which is huge. Wondering what the explanation is this time. I understand everyone has their worth and price but I fail to see how management and leadership at companies still have jobs and huge bonuses.

Reaganomics has had 35 years. Maybe we need a new vision for our society.

[flavius29663]

> Reaganomics has had 35 years. Maybe we need a new vision for our society.

I see you're assigning this failure to reaganomics, are you then ready to assign all the successes to reaganomics too? i.e. The US became the largest exporter of IT and software, the US corporations put a computer in every home, then in every pocket, with US online companies being 90% of the top companies in the world.

Are you going to say that this is due to reaganomics too? Or only bad things get attributed to it?

Shopify is a Canadian company, not that it matters for my question.

[rqtwteye]

"Maybe we need a new vision for our society"

If AI really kills as many jobs as predicted, we will definitely have to rethink society. It doesn't really make sense that a technology that improves overall productivity of society ends up making large segments of the population suffer. We need to find a way to have everybody benefit from progress and not just a few at the top.

[wincy]

Unemployed disenfranchised highly intelligent highly motivated people is going to be very different than a bunch of unemployed McDonald’s workers. It’s going to be interesting to see what happens if nothing else.

[swexbe]

Yep, kind of hard to keep up the facade when you can ”do everything right” and still be unemployed and poor.

[FredPret]

The CEO's job is to deliver results, not maintain full employment. Companies exist, and have always existed, to be temporary money-making enterprises.

Acting like they are civil institutions tasked with upholding the social fabric is absurd.

[kalleboo]

But why did the CEO hire all these useless people in the first place if they are so competent? Why did it take until now to fire them?

[shmatt]

The unspoken part in many of these layoffs, is that hiring people based on 5 back to back zooms, 50% leetcode, 50% STAR-method situational questions, means you have absolutely no idea how these people will actually work in the real world

[xur17]

The CEO isn't an all knowing entity. It's possible they made a judgement call and were wrong.

Would you prefer that companies be absolutely sure before they hire anyone to ensure layoffs never happen? It seems like the end result would be less hiring / more people without work.

[kalleboo]

So layoff the CEO if he made such an egregious judgement call as to hire 1 in 5 too many staff

[xur17]

OK, so now we're going to fire any CEO that lays off more than X% of the staff? The likely effect will be slower hiring, and less jobs in our economy. Is that desirable?

[FredPret]

Who says they’re competent?

[bart_spoon]

So 20% of Shopify employees were incompetent? Why were they hired then? It’s mismanagement either way.

Edit: I clearly misunderstood the above exchange

[FredPret]

Who says the CEO is competent

[kalleboo]

So layoff the CEO if he made such an egregious judgement call as to hire 1 in 5 too many staff

[kaon123]

It is not so simplistically true. This is what Reaganomics will want you to believe. Examples abound of companies that did not prioritise shareholder returns over everything. Companies are organisations that operate within a society and therefore have a role to play to keep that society together.

There are (very limited) lawful structures that try to make this happen, but much more is down to culture. In many (most?) countries it is considered shameful if a company prioritises shareholder value above everything else. I honestly believe the US is an exception in this regard. Unfortunately US culture is taking over.

- And now to go on a complete tangent: In the second part of "The Three Body Problem" trilogy, The Dark Forest, institutions are described that have both an operational officer and a political officer. The navy has an Admiral that decides the strategy, and a political officer that makes sure the Navy does the right thing. The same is then applied to companies. - I wonder if this is a model to apply to a capitalist society: Where you have a CEO doing their regular thing, but also a political officer making sure society is not disadvantaged. Hard to pull off without falling into totalitarianism I guess.

[FredPret]

It’s actually hilarious people still believe more political bureaucracy is the answer. Fortunately, US culture is taking over.

Companies are formed by shareholders to make money in some venture for the shareholders. People can pursue their social objectives through other types of organizations. Perhaps governments that impose regulations and taxes. I myself support moderate taxes and light regulations.

To the extent that companies focus on anything other than money for the owners, it is a failure by the owners to reign in the CEO. The CEO might want to get a fat paycheck for not much performance. The owners want to delegate everything to the CEO. After all, we’re all lazy humans.

[the_overseer]

You know what would make even more money for the owners? People having less rights. Say, working people for 12 hours a day and throw them out when they are no longer as productive as some arbitrary set goal.

So you would have no issue with owners lobbying to change the law so they make even more money, right? As you said, more money is the only goal.

What would you say if it's you who is worked to death? See, everybody thinks they will be an owner, a master if you will in this system. But it's more likely you would be another sla.... ahem... valued employee.

[FredPret]

Your first paragraph is a non-sequitur. Only in a coal mine with pickaxes do more hours equal more profit for me, the investor.

The richest countries all have strong rights, legally and also informally expected rights. The richest companies have confident people who have lots of options, not 12-hour-a-day slaves.

Because nowadays almost all money is made using the mind, so there’s a natural relationship between a higher human development index and my net worth. (I mean I’m a normal human with empathy who also enjoys other people doing well, but even a sociopath could see they’ll make more money in the US than in either a totalitarian state or a government-less state - North Korea vs Haiti).

But all that is besides the point. Companies are single-purpose entities. Like Unix programs - do one thing well. This is very hard, and goals should not be mixed. The one thing is making money for the shareholders by doing X.

For the type of worker protection you would argue for, you need other types of organizations like unions, governments, political parties, etc.

This is why you need capitalism and democracy to make a thriving society.

[lotsofpulp]

> I wonder if this is a model to apply to a capitalist society: Where you have a CEO doing their regular thing, but also a political officer making sure society is not disadvantaged. Hard to pull off without falling into totalitarianism I guess

Who is choosing the CEO and political officer?

[matdehaast]

Agreed, all these people who make it seem that companies need to be some duty to employee everyone clearly hasn't seen how this has failed in many social leaning states.

Don't like how they do it? Create your own company and run it how you want.... We live in a world where you can do that.

[FredPret]

Exactly, and startup costs have been dropping like a stone.

No-one owes anyone a living, but you don’t need anybody’s permission either.

Seeking to create artificial certainty in outcome leads to insurmountable stagnation.

[UK-Al05]

Society exists to create certainty where there was risk.

[osigurdson]

>> I fail to see how management and leadership at companies still have jobs and huge bonuses

I definitely agree in situations where the company is doing poorly. If a company has found a way to become more efficient then bosses probably do deserve bonuses.

[throwawaysleep]

If a CEO ever feels the need to give out a reassuring letter, you know that layoffs and wage freezes are on the way.

Management doesn't care about you, so anything that is about your comfort and well being is a scam.

[dboreham]

Perhaps worth noting that management may care about employees, but management have bosses who require them to care more about them than they care about employees.

[somedude895]

> Reaganomics has had 35 years. Maybe we need a new vision for our society.

Because some highly paid people lost their jobs we need a new vision for society? Sure, it sucks to be laid off but you talk as if there's mass unemployment and droves of people suddenly living in squalor. Don't be so dramatic.