[AnimalMuppet]

The rest of what you say is true, but not a creator. If the creator created the material universe, then the creator is not material. If the material universe was there first, then the creator isn't really a creator, just some kind of organizer.

[p1esk]

If we create a VR world with intelligent beings then we are the creator for the beings, and both we and the beings are material. Right?

[cpersona]

We would not be material or natural to the inhabitants of that VR world. They couldn’t prove our existence.

[p1esk]

The relationship between the VR beings and the creator (us), would fall into one of the three scenarios:

1. They don't know about anything outside of their VR world. They could have made up fairy tales or religions about what could have possibly created their world. They would be completely unaware about our existence. This could be our case - we ourselves don't know if we're living in a simulation.

2. They have been able to infer enough from the peculiarities of their reality to suspect they are living in a simulation, and that there are beings which have created the simulation.

3. They know they live in a simulated world, built by us. We made contact with them and told them all about our world and how we made their world.

You can argue that, in the first scenario, something that "does not exist" is not "material" or "natural". But this would be strictly their ignorance or misconceptions. It does not change the reality that both we, and them, are material beings. In fact, if you insist on this argument, you might already be assuming that our world is not entirely material, because it would follow that our subjective opinions define reality.

Scenarios 2 and 3 clearly allow the possibility of them perceiving us as equally material beings.

[ofalkaed]

So where did the creator come from? Why does the creator of our universe have to be bound by our universe? Being creator suggests there is more which materialism does not rule out, just says that the more is not supernatural and that we come from the same stuff as it, that we were created in its image as the Christians would say.

[Dracophoenix]

> Being creator suggests there is more which materialism does not rule out, just says that the more is not supernatural and that we come from the same stuff as it

This was Spinoza's position on creation.

[Dracophoenix]

> If the creator created the material universe, then the creator is not material.

If the universe was created by a lone demiurge, then creator and the created would both be material.