[than3]

Well none of those studies take into account US-style weed-out classes where there may be a 12% pass rate for a bottleneck transfer class, and the class is structured to fail students.

Any value-based research that neglects these is just junk science.

[dahart]

That’s not true. The study I cited does account for your pet-peeve example, because they’re treating university as a black box and examining the outcomes. This captures all the weed-out classes along with everything else that happens in college.

If the weed-out classes were having a statistical effect, then we’d see it in the outcomes. So either we are seeing it, and the success rate of a college degree would be even higher without the weed-out classes, or your contrived example in reality has little to no effect on the outcomes. Either way, your example might disenfranchise a few people who aren’t prepared or capable of handling college at all, but on the whole most people fare well with the education. Maybe the weeder classes don’t matter because people try again, or switch majors, or continue without transferring. Or maybe the number of people hitting such a weeder class is low, or maybe the 12% pass rate is very exaggerated and not at all representative of the average pass rate?

[than3]

> That's not true. This captures all the weed-out classes.

No it doesn't. You are wrong. There are a number of well understood ways where you would not see deviations like this in the statistical outcomes. Flawed, skewed, or under-representing metrics being just one, as I mentioned in another post. Garbage in Garbage out.

If you compare the success rate of US college against the EU, there are big differences but this is apples to oranges comparison with arguably the same outcomes, but there is no reasonable way to discount or map certain differences in implementation. EU has generally a higher pass rate for less investment.

I fared well with education in every class except the structured to fail classes. What does it say when you have a student who passes Calculus 3 and other math classes above with a high 90, and can't pass Mechanics that solely tests Math in 3 question, two test format with causality properties between the questions on each test. Where the accompanying required lab scores for the same person are top 90s, even scored top of all pooled lab classes for an egg drop design contest, but can't pass the test. The only egg drop among all classes at the college to survive 4 stories without a crack with paper, water, and a baggy (by design at my insistence). Far from a contrived example when you have the transcripts to back it up.

While not necessarily a good example because probabilities have poor results in relation to likelihood in reality, it still demonstrates the margin for error, the likelihood of a passing score assuming the material was taught is roughly .3^6 power for 2 exams. You need to get a 70 in the class to pass, so you could only get 1 question wrong for the entire class between both 2 tests, which means you could only get the final question wrong on either of those two tests if the test had causality properties. That doesn't seem so bad, but in reality each one of those questions would be 10-20 steps each to get the correct answer for one question. So that probability shrinks further to .3^(6*120). You have perfection, or you don't pass.

Honestly it just sounds like you are trying to make excuses and minimize my experience, like most people do because you want to believe that something is true (even when it isn't). In my 'experience', which spans 15+ years in education, alongside many others; that is not the case. It was a lie, a pipe-dream sold with lies that had nothing to do with actual merit.

Its a drain on financial resources with moving goal posts with no determinable way to pass for those classes that are structured to fail, and those courses are bottleneck courses needed for GE and transfer.

In learning system's theory, you learn about the specific requirements needed for determinism. There's only 3 or 4 fundamental ways you can structure exam questions where you can legitimately have 1 correct answer. Most of those test questions in those structured to fail classes, fail those specific requirements needed for a determinable answer. Worse they optimize for the least work, and max fail rate (for repeat customers)

If a question on an exam doesn't have a determinable answer... it is testing how well you guess which is to say its not testing anything at all. It is using an unsound test to keep your money and require you to take the course again. That's fraud.

Many of those exam's questions are simply cleverly disguised guesses; with 3 or more different possible correct answers.The point of testing is with the instruction from class, there is only one right answer.

Anything else is fraud; but they are state-funded institutions, and you have no due process because there is no obligation to act on legitimate complaints and those institutions are largely shielded legally. It suffers all the classic bureaucratic failures.

[dahart]

I don’t know what you’re talking about, but you’ve said next to nothing that is verifiable and haven’t included any links to references or stats in your rant, so with nothing verifiable, you’ve left me with no choice but to mostly ignore the comment. FWIW, using words like ‘lies’ and ‘fraud’ and ‘junk science’ are all red flags to me and make it sound like you have more of a bone to pick than an objective viewpoint. I have no idea what your experience is, it’s not possible for me to minimize it intentionally, and I’m sincerely sorry you feel that way as it’s not my intention, but it should be as obvious to you as it is to me that your experience could have deviated from the norm, maybe you were unlucky. In any case I’m left completely unconvinced by your argument that there’s anything missing from the Fed’s statistics relating to weeder classes that affects the broad outcomes of students. Even part of your explanation, under-represented metrics, is exactly what I suggested as well. Maybe the weeder classes aren’t experienced by most people, and therefore aren’t detrimental to the overall outcomes, in average. Or- and your wall of text failed to consider this possibility- that weeder classes are affecting outcomes negatively, and the outcomes would be even better without such classes. It’s possible that you’re right and the statistics are also right.