[gte910h]

Settlers of Catan has piles of luck compared to many other games that only get uncertainty from the chaos of a bunch of other players moves.

The die rolls, especially using the wooden dice that come with the game, are very likely to come out very biased and not very even for a given game, as well as the very rare powerful cards buried in a sea of knights in the dev card deck.

Luck is not bad. Luck is merely a thing you can put in a game or not, just like 'it is played on a field' or 'do you wager real money on the outcome'.

Games with too little luck make unskilled players unwilling to play them with skilled players (such as chess).

Does Catan have more luck than many other designer/german board games? More so than many ones originally published in Europe and a few of the US ones (Princes of Florence, Power Grid, Automobile, Chaos in the Old World all have far less luck), but many other games, especially "Classic" board games, have far more luck, such as Diplomacy (chaos based uncertainty is still something uncertain), Monopoly, Scrabble, and Risk.

If you gasp at catan having lots of luck, think of this tidbit: When's the last time you have seen people who know how to play texas holdem play straight up 5-card draw with no wilds? Other than a brief interlude, probably not often: The game is too skill based. Whereas the much closer odds for texas holdem have MANY people willing to play a round, even drop 10k play against the pros in the WSOP.

If you're looking for more games in the vein of Catan, check out this list (some good wargames in there as well, read the description before buying):

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/browse/boardgame

[Tossrock]

Could you explain how 5 card draw is more skill based than Hold 'em? This is not in a combative tone, I really want to know.

[gte910h]

Starting hand strengths are MUCH further apart in holdem and 5CD.

You can start with the nuts (Straight flush to the Ace) in 5CD, but in holdem, AA is only about 450:1 better than a random disconnected offsuit (2s 8h).

Tight play is overwhelmingly rewarded (you can start with a hand thousands of times better than your opponent). So in a 5CD game against bad players, the good players fold repeatedly until they get a strong hand, and take all the money, repeatedly.

Against people of similar skill, draw (with the antes most people play with) is more of an actual game, and less of a horrible train-wreck of watching bad players getting fleeced. But in a similar holdem game, a guy can sit down, play every hand, and will often turn out okay.

*My comments are about cash games. For tournaments, the tournament dynamics dwarf a huge quantity of the strategy in the actual game.

[Tossrock]

I guess I don't see how that's more skill based. In fact it seems more luck based to me – your play is dictated more by literal luck of the draw than by your skill level. You could be the best player in the world, and if you are continuously dealt trash, lose. In Hold 'em, the skills of bluffing and reading are much more important than the luck of your hole cards.

[herge]

Yeah, I think the Hold'em players skip 5 card draw because it is less of a skill based game.

[herge]

There's good game design around luck (randomness) and bad game design around luck.

Monopoly has a lot of randomness, and it is hard to design a strategy to mitigate bad luck, which is probably why it isn't worth playing more than a few times.

Settlers of Catan and Texas Hold'em Poker both involve randomness, but a good strategy will mitigate bad luck (for example , in settlers, avoid holding a lot of a commodity to not be crippled by the monopoly card) and exploit good luck.

[gte910h]

Monopoly's biggest issues are that it eliminates people, and people refuse to play with the auctions and other game rules as written (and do stuff like letting people survive, etc, prolonging it longer).

To each his own, for sure, but that game takes forever without the auctions.

[aw3c2]

Any proof on those dice being biased? I am truly interested in this now, surely some geeks tested various game company's dice.

[gte910h]

A wooden die that has carved pips with no active attempt to prevent bias (aka, a weird weight in the middle, etc), will exhibit a bias from the fact some faces have more pips (which are pits in the wood) than others. This means some sides are more likely to be pulled face down, and end up face down.

That is why in vegas you use those certain red dice at a craps table http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dice#Precision_dice

I play catan with craps dice.