[schroeding]

> At least here in Bavaria, it would just be "ein Helles" (or "ein Dunkles"). :D

No, I wouldn't. And you wouldn't just order "a Lager", right? I kinda think we don't actually disagree. :)

The only difference may be that, if asked what kind of beer a "Helles" is, expecting some kind of category other than "Helles", I would answer "untergäriges Bier" and you may answer "Lager". Both are correct, one description focuses on the ability to keep the beer in storage in the ice cellar of the brewery, the other on the brewing process. What we both probably don't do is also e.g. call a Pils a Lager. In my experience, some of our american friends do that.

My point was that the US definition of beers that are "Lager" is very broad, way broader than in Germany (and probably also Switzerland & Austria) and that some parts of Germany even use completly different words for a similar categorization.

[soco]

Ahhh I think I finally got your point - that basically everything is confusing (as even my favorite porters can be untergärig). And I also learned that the Austrian Märzen is not exactly what I'd expect, so all in all an interesting beer thread :)

PS I wouldn't order a lager either. If I didn't care what they have (very rarely) I'd order "a beer" and live with it, or otherwise I'd ask for the choices.