[kome]

> "You ended up with Trump because elites in Russia wanted him elected more than elites in the US wanted Clinton"

This is so detached from reality, that is not even trying to understand why trump happened and why it may happens again.

[Moissanite]

I should really have said "elites, including those in antagonistic countries like Russia". My main point was more about the elites than where they are from.

[JKCalhoun]

I think you both can be right.

[Applejinx]

No, they nailed it pretty unambiguously. It was a testament to weaponizing social media. In retrospect, an amazing time in history, glad we survived it (mostly because Trump isn't really very good at anything, including treachery).

[Moissanite]

Do you believe the appeal of Trump to disaffected Americans would be enough to win him the election, if big business (Koch et al) turned against the Republican party? Genuine question, because I feel like that is where the lever really is.

[woooooo]

Very different assertion. OP was saying Russian elites installed Trump and us Americans were helpless victims.

[Applejinx]

Moissanite is correct. It's rarely as simple as the sound bite would have it. It's a very interesting subject, honestly, especially in the era of AI popularization. Back in the day they did that work with humans, but the ways of tracking the results would be pretty much the same either way.

[Moissanite]

I'm the OP - and it's more complicated than that. Foreign powers fermented the discord in American society (which was already there for sure, but could have been much less toxic without external influence), hence describing it as a proxy war and not a foreign-backed coup.

[woooooo]

The presidential campaigns had a billion dollars apiece, plus more from SuperPACs. Blaming the Russians for the outcome is just evading responsibility.

[selimthegrim]

Fomented or fermented?

[Moissanite]

Yes!

[DeathArrow]

Blaming foreigners for anything that is wrong in your country. I thought, you guys, considered that a conservative feat. Are you copying the conservatives you blame, are you on a morally high ground and feel you have the right to affirm anything that helps your cause, whatever it might be?

[mablopoule]

Blaming foreign influence is not the same as blaming foreigners. Foreign influence is more about pushing the most convenient angle (to them) by means of propaganda, astroturfing or information laundering.

On a similar note, you can absolutely point to America for using the international monetary system in its favor, and that wouldn't be the same a blaming regular americans.