[WastingMyTime89]

Because they are not issues on a day to day basis when you use the language.

I used Ocaml for a paid internship some years ago. I was very much a beginner. Do you know how many time I felt at loss or annoyed by type conversion or the precedence rules for various part of the syntax? I never did.

The truth is you never encounter the precedence rules when writing Ocaml normally using parentheses like a normal human being and you don’t convert that much between exotic types. Most of the conversion you actually do are between the same types and most of the time you have to write converter anyway because there is logic involved. I worked professionally as a Java developer for a bit. I think I had to write more conversion code between weird classes then than I ever did in Ocaml.

The issue is not telling people they are "holding it wrong". The issue is that this is not what’s going to annoy you as an Ocaml beginner.

The author of this article is not even an Ocaml beginner by the way. That’s actually someone who used to work on the Haskell compiler.

[ModernMech]

> The issue is that this is not what’s going to annoy you as an Ocaml beginner.

Sure, but tbf, the post is about what annoys the author, not what would annoy beginners. As you say, the author is not a beginner, and so their problems wouldn't be beginner problems.

[WastingMyTime89]

That’s not the point I was making. They are not expert problems either. How often as an expert do you think you encounter precedence issues you were not encountering as a beginner?

[illiarian]

> Because they are not issues on a day to day basis when you use the language.

They still are. You just internalize them. Progammers are the world's greatest masochists with the world's biggest Stockholm syndromes, and we don't like to admit it.

For example, his pain points about syntax ambiguity are absolutely valid, and true. However, when you "use the language every day" you learn to avoid those constructs and extract them into separate functions for example because "that's how it's always done, and it's a nice little quirk of the language".

[WastingMyTime89]

No, the syntax parts he criticises are not this kind (they are not ambiguous by the way). What’s in the article is very unidiomatic OCaml incorrectly intended purposefully to make it look like it’s doing something else than what it does.

You don’t write tuples without parentheses because it’s weird, harder to read and no one does it. Same for the precedence rules of expression. You just use begin and end for blocks like you would use braces in C because you actually want to write a block. No one is just randomly writing nested code without them because well it doesn’t work.

It’s not a quirk. The author is just complaining that you have to mark blocks like in every language. That’s a weird thing to complain about.

I agree that the lack of as-hoc polymorphism is a downside (I don’t agree with how the article presents it but the article is disingenuous from the start anyway). Everyone would like to have modular implicit.

[illiarian]

> unidiomatic OCaml

> You don’t write tuples without parentheses

> Same for the precedence rules of expression. You just use begin and end for blocks

This is exactly what I wrote, but in a Stockholm-syndrome-y way.

> The author is just complaining that you have to mark blocks like in every language.

He points out a real ambiguity in the syntax where the parser literally parses the same-looking and same-behaving statements completely differently.

Sure it's solved by "you just write begin-end" workaround that you internalise. Or it could be solved at the syntax level (like erlang and elixir)

[WastingMyTime89]

> This is exactly what I wrote, but in a Stockholm-syndrome-y way.

Do you complain about having to put braces around C expressions to not get unexpected behaviour from the compiler?

> He points out a real ambiguity in the syntax where the parser literally parses the same-looking and same-behaving statements completely differently.

No, he doesn’t. If that what you got from the article, you were bamboozled. He points out that match, try and (;) have different precedence which is not ambiguous. Writing begin and end is not a workaround. That’s how you mark blocks which is what he should have done because, well, he wants a block.

Erlang has exactly the same issue if you write unidiomatic code by the way.

That’s unsurprising because "don’t write code implicitly relying on precedence behaviour" is taught to virtually all beginners in most programming languages.

[lmm]

If you shouldn't write code that way then it should be a compilation error (or at the very least a warning) to write code that way.

[WastingMyTime89]

I’m not sure I agree.

It’s perfectly legitimate code and working code. It’s just hard to read.

Should language prevents you from writing hard to read code if it means making trade off? I personally think that’s what linters are for but you are free to disagree.

I’m going to bed and don’t think I will revisit this comment thread. It’s probably the longest discussion I ever had about syntax points you don’t even encounter while using the language.

I have fond memory of writing OCaml. It’s nice to use. It gets out of your way. The compiler is quick. It gives nice error message. The syntax and semantics are flexible enough and elegant enough than you don’t feel like your fighting the language and your code feels nice. That’s what matters to me at the end of the day.

[hajile]

Is there ANY common language without TONS of ways to write bad code?

Is there ANY such language at all regardless of popularity?