[ptero]

US certainly has its share of horrible cities.

That said, US is a collection of regions with very different social setups and it is easy to move between them. It is common, as preferences change, for youngsters to live for a few years in one state, settle to raise children in another, then move as empty-nesters to third.

If safety is what one is after, one can find a place that is super safe, comparable on safety to anywhere in the world. Someone else would aim for nightlife instead. This flexibility is what makes US very livable for me. Just my 2c.

[MavisBacon]

Definitely this. I grew up outside Baltimore and went on to live in Boulder CO, Orange County CA, moved back home and then to LA on a whim. Finished school in Nashville, TN and my wife and I are about to get out and move to Maine. Zero red tape whatsoever- the flexibility and ease of traversing and moving around the USA is definitely awesome and rarely discussed in terms of the benefits of living here. There’s something for pretty much everyone and the culture varies greatly from region to region, city to city.

[mcv]

With freedom of movement, it's just as easy to move around the EU now. But I don't have to make a trade-off between safety and nightlife.

But I've got to admit that Maine looks pretty safe according to https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/charts-and-maps

[ptero]

First of all, I am not bashing EU or Europe -- great countries, great history, etc. But I would pretty strongly disagree on "just as easy to move around the EU" part. From what I understand it is super smooth for vacations, but not nearly as frictionless to move around semi-permanently. For example, someone graduating in Norway, moving to Spain for 3 years, then on to Germany would see friction in renting a flat, sending children to school or buying a house. If this is not the case, I would love to be corrected.

Also, it sounds strange to me to look at guns as an inverse proxy for safety. I would, especially with kids, first look at drug prevalence and second at accidents on the roads (both cars and bikes). Which reinforces what I started with: the ability to select the place I want to live in based on my own preferences. Given a wide variety of options, both politically and socially, one can usually find a place they are happy in. My 2c.

[Symbiote]

For school you may have language barriers, depending what language(s) your children speak. They're entitled to a place at school though.

The only barrier to buying a flat or house might be slightly reduced access to loans. I found in Denmark it is easier for a Dane to get a loan for 95% of the house value, but foreigners might only get 80%. EU citizens are somewhere in the middle, depending what the banks think.

Language is the main problem. If you aren't fluent in the new country's language, you can have problems with government bureaucracy, school/work, socialising, children's lives, doctors etc. If you speak English these are much reduced in countries with high English proficiency (IS/NO/SE/FI/DK/NL/LU/CY, obviously IE/MT). Or, if you are moving where there's already a significant community of people speaking your language.

[ptero]

Good to know, thank you! Totally fair on language, I assumed that a person moving to a country will have to learn (or, better, already know) a language.

Do kids from other countries tend to be accepted well in schools? I heard that at least in France schools can be very clique-ish and coming from the outside the kid can face significant hurdles. But I am just parroting what I heard elsewhere.

[Symbiote]

Highly skilled professionals in some fields (engineers, scientists, software developers, very senior managers etc) can often find a job with only English. These people are more likely to send their children to a foreign-language school, even if they have to pay for it, as they might not plan on staying forever.

Not knowing/learning the language also works for some jobs like cleaning or agriculture, if so many workers are migrants that everyone speaks Romanian or English etc. Also postgraduate students.

Plenty of people from the north who move south when they retire (e.g. Netherlands to Spain, Germany to Greece) move before learning the language.

How quickly people learn the local language depends. Slowly in Denmark or the Netherlands where English is almost universal and work is often done in English, quickly in France or Italy where the opposite applies. Slowly if you're 65 and surrounded by other Dutch pensioners.

From what I know of France, a child from the other side of France can also be excluded, but this is from French emigrants teasing each other. I haven't heard of similar problems in Denmark.

Growing up in London I didn't even notice the European immigrants in my class and could hardly exclude the 40% of the class who were descendents of South Asian immigrants, but this varies significantly around the country.

I expect compared to the USA there's much more reluctance to move when a child is 14-18 years old, unless they can be certain of a place in the French school in Copenhagen etc. But this is primarily because of the difference in exams and language.

[mcv]

Depends on the school of course. The school of my children has plenty of foreign kids, or kids with foreign parents at least, and that's not a problem at all. But Amsterdam is a bit more cosmopolitan than most places, of course. It might be harder for the only foreign kid in a small village. Or not. It all depends.

[MavisBacon]

Not sure if there was much need for snark, I was simply stating some positive aspects of living in the U.S. (becoming increasingly difficult) - would be nice to not have the violence piece thrown in my face. There are also plenty of cities with “culture” and low levels of gun violence here. San Diego, Denver, Portland, Austin for example of bigger cities.

Some of us have family and friends here or simply can’t afford to live in or move to the EU if we wanted to.

[mcv]

It's not snark. Safety is a serious issue for me when it comes to my kids. An issue that I don't have to worry about here, but I'd feel quite a bit different if we lived in an area where you have to take the possibility of school shootings into account. It's good to know that's not an issue everywhere in the US, but I honestly wouldn't know in what part of the US it's not an issue; from the outside, it seems they can happen anywhere.

[MavisBacon]

cool. just saying- consider yourself fortunate as I was born in one of the most violent cities in the world (Baltimore) to an over-bearing mother who had a very hard time with me leaving despite the riots, corruption, and nightly gunplay I could hear ring out from my row home. We are quite close but she didn't speak with me for months when I moved.

I do sympathize though. I do not have kids (yet) but our move from TN > Maine is definitely partially motivated by the fact that I said I would absolutely never raise a child in the south due to gun culture and archaic legislation in general. For example most states in the south still allow school teachers and administrators to hit children- most of this happens in Mississippi and TN, then basically other states where lots of poverty, christianity, or mormonism are.